[Avodah] Rikud

[Chana Luntz]

RMT wrote:

> <Just pointing out that the simple understanding of the Misha in 
> Taanis 4:8 is that the women used to *dance* in the vineyards, and 
> that the men would see them dance (as the women were saying "bachur 
> sa na einecha" while dancing).  Today, we seem to assume that men are 
> not supposed to see women dancing because we say that it's not 
> tzniusdik.>
> 
>      It doesn't say "rokdos," it says "cholos," which I believe means 
> going around in a circle, a la the yeshivishe two-step, not any fancy 
> steps, which might indeed be considered as calling too much attention 
> to physicality, and hence could be considered not tzniusdig.  It is 
> this distinction which is given as a heter for yeshiva-type dancing 
> at simchas on Shabbos, as not being a violation of ein m'rakdin.

I was having a discussion about this with somebody off line on
mail-jewish.

As far as I can see, this idea that modern dancing (ie the yeshiva
shuffle) is not the same as the dancing that they did at the time of the
gemora is a chiddush of the Aruch Hashulchan (to explain, as you say,
why it is that we allow people to dance today on shabbas when there is a
specific gezera against it, brought down in the Shulchan Aruch, the
Aruch Hashulchan being uncomfortable with the Rema's limud zchus, based
on Tosphos, that is it because most people aren't familiar with fixing
instruments today, and hence the reason for the gezera no longer
applies).  He says that modern dancing is not the kind of dancing they
did at the time, which was more like "rikkudei nashim". And it was only
against the latter that the gezera was made.  

Are you aware of anywhere else this distinction is made?

But surely if you are relying on the distinction brought by the Aruch
Hashulchan, would not that in fact allow the watching by men of women
dancing today?  Because he says that modern dancing is not real dancing
as per the gemora, but something lesser than that - something that would
not cause people to be tempted to fix instruments.   But the dancing
done at weddings these days (by men or women) is no different to that
done on shabbas, so if it is permitted on shabbas, then, according to
your logic, does this not make it tzniusdik enough for men to watch at
weddings? 
 
> EMT

Regards

Chana