<html><head></head><body><div class="ydp4242316byahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">On my previous email I wrote about the pasuk from Mishlei:</div><div dir="rtl" data-setdir="false"><div><div><br></div><div><div dir="rtl" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px; text-align: left;"><span style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="4" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color: inherit;"><span style="text-align: right;">לַֽעֲלוּקָ֨ה</span><span style="text-align: right;"> ׀ שְׁתֵּ֥י בָנוֹת֮ הַ֤ב ׀ הַ֥ב שָׁל֣וֹשׁ הֵ֭נָּה לֹ֣א תִשְׂבַּ֑עְנָה אַ֝רְבַּ֗ע לֹא־אָ֥מְרוּ הֽוֹן׃</span></font><br></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false">I am not sure if I was right. Indeed one possibility is this:</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">The second "Hav" is Ole VeYored. </div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;">LaAluka is a title, in my opinion (like "LeDavid"), and the trope is Azla LeGarme, functions as a Temurat Ole VeYored. </div></div></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false">The nikud Patach under the letter Lamed, is not "to the". It is actually a Sheva that was converted to Patach. The reason is the Chataf Patach under the letter Ain.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false">But there is another possibility. The trop on the word "Vanot" is Tzinor. This is a trop type "Mishne".</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false">This trop "nominates" a Shalish. This Shalish is the Azla LeGarme on the word "La'Aluka". </div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false">The Patach under the letter Lamed is "to the".</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false">While the first option "Aluka" is the name of the sage who wrote the Mashal,</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false">The second option says that the creature Aluka (leech).</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false">Which one makes more sense?</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;" data-setdir="false">Kol Tuv,</div></div><div><br></div><div class="ydp4242316bsignature"><div style="color: black; font-style: normal; font-weight: normal; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial;">Aharon Gal<div>201-414-7190</div></div></div></div>
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On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 12:30:34 PM EST, rabbirichwolpoe <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com> wrote:
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<div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653"><div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div>All the above is guide me to think that the Temura is not 100% Temura. It does not take with it all the rules of the trops, of which she replacing.>></div><div><br></div><div>I kinda thought all along that this is the most obvious solution.</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653composer_signature"> RRW</div><div><br></div><div><br></div><div align="left" style="font-size:100%;color:#000000;"><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: galsaba--- via Mesorah <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org> </div><div>Date: 11/22/23 08:51 (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: Yitzhak Ajzner <yitzhakajz@gmail.com> </div><div>Cc: mesorah@aishdas.org </div><div>Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Emet Trops </div><div><br></div></div><div style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;" class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp844b7241yahoo-style-wrap"><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp844b7241yiv8946352858"><div class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp844b7241yiv8946352858ydp3acbf212yahoo-style-wrap"><div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">Prior to email the group I thought about the idea that there was influence from 25:1, as the three words are the same. Possible. Although 25:1 is a short pasuk.</div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">If this is the case, then may be the melody of the same three words is identical in these two verses, and therefore, the trops too.</div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">As for the rules, why should we think that the rule of "Etnach will never come to the right of Ole Veyored, is stronger that the rule that the Temura of Ole Veyored is always Azla LeGarme, and the temura of Etnach is always Pazer?</div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">See the following from Tehilim 9:7.</div><div dir="rtl"><font size="4" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="text-align:justify;"> </span><span style="text-align:justify;">הָֽאוֹיֵ֨ב | תַּ֥מּוּ חֳרָב֗וֹת לָ֫נֶ֥צַח וְעָרִ֥ים נָתַ֑שְׁתָּ אָבַ֖ד זִכְרָ֣ם הֵֽמָּה:</span></font><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="rtl"><span style="font-size:28px;text-align:justify;font-family:Ezra SIL SR;"><br></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">How is it possible that we have two Ole Veyored (actually, the first one is Temurat Ole VeYored) at the same pasuk?</div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">See the pasuk from Tehulim 98:1</div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div dir="rtl"><font size="4" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;">מִזְמ֡וֹר</span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;"> </span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;">שִׁ֤ירוּ</span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;"> לַֽיהוָ֨ה ׀ שִׁ֣יר חָ֭דָשׁ כִּֽי־נִפְלָא֣וֹת עָשָׂ֑ה הוֹשִֽׁיעָה־לּ֥וֹ יְ֝מִינ֗וֹ וּזְר֥וֹעַ קׇדְשֽׁוֹ׃</span></font><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="rtl"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;"><br></span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">How is it possible to have two Etnach (actually, the first one is Temurat Etnach) at the same pasuk?</span></span><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br></span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">See Mishlei 30:15</span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br></span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br></span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br></span></span></div><div dir="rtl"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="4" style="background-color:inherit;" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;">לַֽעֲלוּקָ֨ה</span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;"> ׀ שְׁתֵּ֥י בָנוֹת֮ הַ֤ב ׀ הַ֥ב שָׁל֣וֹשׁ הֵ֭נָּה לֹ֣א תִשְׂבַּ֑עְנָה אַ֝רְבַּ֗ע לֹא־אָ֥מְרוּ הֽוֹן׃</span></font><br></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">The second "Hav" is Ole VeYored. </div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">LaAluka is a title, in my opinion (like "LeDavid"), and the trope is Azla LeGarme, functions as a Temurat Ole VeYored. How is it possible to have two Ole VeYored (one is temurat Ole VeYored) in the same pasuk?</div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">All the above is guide me to think that the Temura is not 100% Temura. It does not take with it all the rules of the trops, of which she replacing.</div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">So, the pazer on the word LeDavid" in Pasuk 28:1, is Temurat Etnach? Is it Temurat Ole Veyored? or may be we need to consider it not completely as Temura of either one. The pazer here is a strong mafsik. If you do not see it as 100% the replacement of Etnach, then there is no reason why it win ill not come to the right of Ole VeYored.</div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">By the way, seems to me that also the trop Shalshelet in the 21 sefarim, is no 100% temurat Segol. It is stronger.</div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr">Kol Tuv,</div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br></span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br></span></span></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" dir="ltr"><br></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp844b7241yiv8946352858ydp3acbf212signature"><div style="color:black;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-family:arial;">Aharon Gal<div>201-414-7190</div></div></div></div>
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On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 04:34:30 AM EST, Yitzhak Ajzner <yitzhakajz@gmail.com> wrote:
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<div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042"><div><div class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042WordSection1"><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;">What an extraordinarily advanced level of discussion!</span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;"> </span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;">I don’t see how your alternative explanations to Rav Breuer’s presentation of the exceptions could be what is behind this.</span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;">An Etnahta <b>never</b> divides an entire verse, if there are 6 words or more to the left of the main division. In the verse here, there are 11 words to the left of the first word. Consequently, it seems to me unreasonable to suggest that an Etnahta is being replaced. Furthermore, proposing that an Oleh Ve’Yored then divides the left of what might have been an Etnahta, seems even more unlikely. Even musically, I somehow doubt that it would have been plausible to chant and Etnahta, followed by an Oleh Ve'yored. Say, like singing a Zakef after a Tipha.</span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;"> </span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;">Rav Breuer’s presentation, on the other hand, suggests a relatively simple anomaly: oops, Pazer instead of Azla-Geresh as a Temura to an Oleh Ve'yored.</span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;">Of course, the extra Oleh Ve'yored to the left complicates that explanation. But it remains easier to digest an Oleh Ve'yored dividing the domain of a temura of another Oleh Ve'yored; than Oleh Ve'yored dividing the domain of a temura of an Etnahta.</span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;"> </span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;" lang="EN-AU">Perhaps the exception could be explained as an influence of the Psalm appearing 3 chapters earlier (Tehillim 25):</span></p><p style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed;" dir="RTL" class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;" lang="HE">לְדָוִ֡ד אֵלֶ֥יךָ יְ֝דוָ֗ד נַפְשִׁ֥י אֶשָּֽׂא</span><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:Roboto;color:black;" dir="LTR"></span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;" lang="EN-AU">Best,</span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;" lang="EN-AU">Yitzhak</span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;"> </span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:Sans;color:#002060;"> </span></p><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042yqt30526" class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042yqt5692339351"><div><div style="border:none;border-top:solid #E1E1E1 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0cm 0cm 0cm;"><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><b>From:</b> Mesorah <mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org> <b>On Behalf Of </b>galsaba--- via Mesorah<br clear="none"><b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, 21 November 2023 3:25 PM<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Yitzchak Gottlieb <zukigottlieb@gmail.com><br clear="none"><b>Cc:</b> mesorah@aishdas.org<br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] Emet Trops</p></div></div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"> </p><div><div><div><div><div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Very nice !</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">I am not sure if Breuer was right about these two verses.</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">No doubt that these two are exceptions.</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">The question is, what is the exception?</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Is it what Breuer wrote in his book?</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Or</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Pazer in these two verses came instead of Etnach, and the exception is that here we have Etnach to the right side of Ole Veyored, and we have two Etnach in one pasuk.</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">Either way, it shows us that Pazer and Azla LeGarme are not complete Temurot.</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;">thanks</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Aharon Gal</span></p><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">201-414-7190</span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> </span></p></div></div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> </span></p></div></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;"> </span></p></div></div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042ydp81b697ccyahoo_quoted_0896242178"><div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 07:28:43 AM EST, Yitzchak Gottlieb <<a href="mailto:zukigottlieb@gmail.com" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">zukigottlieb@gmail.com</a>> wrote: </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201"><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">I don't have an answer, but Breuer (pg 315) has this </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">פסוק</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> as an exception in two ways:</span></p><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">1. One of two places a </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">פזר</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> is a </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">תמורה</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> for an </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">עולה ויורד</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>.</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">2. The only place where an </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">עולה ויורד</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> splits a </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">מלך</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> rather than a whole </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">פסוק</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>.</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;" class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">Zuki</span></p><div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">-- </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:13.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">Yitzchak M. Gottlieb</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><a href="mailto:zukigottlieb@gmail.com" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">zukigottlieb@gmail.com</a></span></p></div></div><div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201yqtfd46034"><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;" class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">On Nov 21, 2023, at 03:50, galsaba--- via Mesorah <<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote:</span></p></blockquote></div></div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201yqtfd10675"><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p><div><div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">I have a question regarding the following pasuk:</span></p></div><div><p style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed;" dir="RTL" class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;" lang="HE"><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span>"לְדָוִ֡ד</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;" dir="LTR"></span></p></div><div><p style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed;" dir="RTL" class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;" lang="HE"><span dir="RTL"></span><span dir="RTL"></span> <b>אֵ֘לֶ֤יךָ</b> יְדוָ֨ד ׀ אֶקְרָ֗א <b>צוּרִי֮</b> <b>אַֽל־תֶּחֱרַ֪שׁ</b> מִ֫מֶּ֥נִּי </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;" lang="HE"></span></p></div><div><p style="text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed;" dir="RTL" class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:15.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;" lang="HE"> פֶּן־תֶּֽחֱשֶׁ֥ה מִמֶּ֑נִּי וְ֝נִמְשַׁ֗לְתִּי עִם־י֥וֹרְדֵי בֽוֹר׃" (תהילים כח:א)</span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;" lang="HE"></span></p></div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">I put the spaces as they appear in Tehilim The edition on Mosad HaRav Kuk.<span lang="HE" dir="RTL"></span></span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">It is clear that there is a long pause after "LeDavid". The reason is the ta'am Pazer. Ta'am pazer when it "rules" just its own word, ie, there is no any word before it, in this case this trope is not a "shalish" (the weakest level), but it is the "temura" ("replacement") of the Etnach.</span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">In this case, how it is possible that Etnach (its "temura") will appear before the trop Ole VeYored?</span></p><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">How it is possible to have two Etnach (one is a temura) in the same pasuk?</span></p><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">Aharon Gal</span></p><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:black;">201-414-7190</span></p></div></div></div></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div></div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayahoo_quoted_0790592897"><div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 11:11:20 AM EDT, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon via Mesorah <<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote: </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayiv7652351431"><div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">This isn’t really a dikduk question. Without nikkud, the morphology is not fully specified. It is a compositional question. Which meaning of the word gives an idiomatically correct sentence. The answer to this, I think, relies as much on the use of the word </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">מפי</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> as the form of </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">למדן</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span>. The broader context could also help. In other words, you could know every page of a reference grammar inside and out, and still not be able to answer this question.</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">Jeremy </span></p></div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayiv7652351431yqt42763"><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span></p><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><p style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;" class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">On Sep 13, 2022, at 10:37 AM, micha--- via Mesorah <<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote:</span></p></blockquote></div><blockquote style="margin-top:5.0pt;margin-bottom:5.0pt;"><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div></blockquote></div></div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayiv7652351431yqt47967"><div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">---------- Forwarded message ----------<br clear="none"><b>From:</b> Zvi Lampel <<a href="mailto:zvilampel@gmail.com" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">zvilampel@gmail.com</a>><br clear="none"><b>Date:</b> Sep 13, 2022, 9:49 AM -0400<br clear="none"><b>To:</b> Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">micha@aishdas.org</a>><br clear="none"><b>Subject:</b> A dikduk question<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></span></p><blockquote style="border:none;border-left:solid windowtext 1.0pt;padding:0cm 0cm 0cm 8.0pt;margin-left:3.75pt;margin-top:3.75pt;margin-right:3.75pt;margin-bottom:3.75pt;"><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">Hi, Micha. </span></p><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">Could you forward this question to those who would have an answer? </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">In this sentence,</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">וכולן למדן משה רבינו ע''ה מפי הגבורה</span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"></span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">does </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;color:#26282A;" lang="HE" dir="RTL">למדן</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR"></span> mean ''he learned them''' or ''he taught them'''? (Nikud is not given.)</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">Thanks,</span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">Zvi Lampel </span></p><div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;"> </span></p></div></div></div></blockquote></div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Mesorah mailing list<br clear="none"><a href="mailto:Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a><br clear="none"><a href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http:/lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org__;!!BhJSzQqDqA!RzUh0IwM2l3_GU2S_5byzVSxUqJxl9gBp-ufbu3ck6OqVB4lz6wAwMCxjnQORTmFMatn04ky7vyTdGcesJEUljQp$" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org__;!!BhJSzQqDqA!RzUh0IwM2l3_GU2S_5byzVSxUqJxl9gBp-ufbu3ck6OqVB4lz6wAwMCxjnQORTmFMatn04ky7vyTdGcesJEUljQp$</a> </span></p></div></div></div><div id="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayqt64215"><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Mesorah mailing list<br clear="none"><a href="mailto:Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a><br clear="none"><a href="http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org</a></span></p></div></div></div></div><p class="ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp6a658051yiv8946352858ydp5e6851bdyiv9334003042MsoNormal"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:sans-serif;color:#26282A;">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Mesorah mailing list<br clear="none"><a href="mailto:Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a><br clear="none"><a href="http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org" shape="rect" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org</a></span></p></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div>
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