<html><head></head><body><div class="ydpcebd7b9yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br></div><div id="ydp9a4e6088yahoo_quoted_0931964136" class="ydp9a4e6088yahoo_quoted"><div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
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<div><div id="ydp9a4e6088yiv5767852434"><div style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;" class="ydp9a4e6088yiv5767852434ydp4242316byahoo-style-wrap"><div><div dir="ltr">On my previous email I wrote about the pasuk from Mishlei:</div><div dir="rtl"><div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><div dir="rtl" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;text-align:left;"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="4" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif" style="background-color:inherit;"><span style="text-align:right;">לַֽעֲלוּקָ֨ה</span><span style="text-align:right;"> ׀ שְׁתֵּ֥י בָנוֹת֮ הַ֤ב ׀ הַ֥ב שָׁל֣וֹשׁ הֵ֭נָּה לֹ֣א תִשְׂבַּ֑עְנָה אַ֝רְבַּ֗ע לֹא־אָ֥מְרוּ הֽוֹן׃</span></font><br clear="none"></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I am not sure if I was right. Indeed one possibility is this:</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The second "Hav" is Ole VeYored. </div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">LaAluka is a title, in my opinion (like "LeDavid"), and the trope is Azla LeGarme, functions as a Temurat Ole VeYored. </div></div></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The nikud Patach under the letter Lamed, is not "to the". It is actually a Sheva that was converted to Patach. The reason is the Chataf Patach under the letter Ain.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">But there is another possibility. The trop on the word "Vanot" is Tzinor. This is a trop type "Mishne".</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">This trop "nominates" a Shalish. This Shalish is the Azla LeGarme on the word "La'Aluka". </div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The Patach under the letter Lamed is "to the".</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">While the first option "Aluka" is the name of the sage who wrote the Mashal,</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">The second option says that the creature Aluka (leech).</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Which one makes more sense?</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">Kol Tuv,</div></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div class="ydp9a4e6088yiv5767852434ydp4242316bsignature"><div style="color:black;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-family:arial;">Aharon Gal<div>201-414-7190</div></div></div></div>
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On Wednesday, November 22, 2023 at 12:30:34 PM EST, rabbirichwolpoe <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com> wrote:
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<div><div id="ydp9a4e6088yiv5767852434ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653"><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>All the above is guide me to think that the Temura is not 100% Temura. It does not take with it all the rules of the trops, of which she replacing.>></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>I kinda thought all along that this is the most obvious solution.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div id="ydp9a4e6088yiv5767852434ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653composer_signature"> RRW</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div><br clear="none"></div><div align="left" style="font-size:100%;color:#000000;"><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: galsaba--- via Mesorah <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org> </div><div>Date: 11/22/23 08:51 (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: Yitzhak Ajzner <yitzhakajz@gmail.com> </div><div>Cc: mesorah@aishdas.org </div><div>Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Emet Trops </div><div><br clear="none"></div></div><div style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;" class="ydp9a4e6088yiv5767852434ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp844b7241yahoo-style-wrap"><div id="ydp9a4e6088yiv5767852434ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp844b7241yiv8946352858"><div class="ydp9a4e6088yiv5767852434ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp844b7241yiv8946352858ydp3acbf212yahoo-style-wrap"><div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Prior to email the group I thought about the idea that there was influence from 25:1, as the three words are the same. Possible. Although 25:1 is a short pasuk.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">If this is the case, then may be the melody of the same three words is identical in these two verses, and therefore, the trops too.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">As for the rules, why should we think that the rule of "Etnach will never come to the right of Ole Veyored, is stronger that the rule that the Temura of Ole Veyored is always Azla LeGarme, and the temura of Etnach is always Pazer?</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">See the following from Tehilim 9:7.</div><div dir="rtl"><font size="4" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="text-align:justify;"> </span><span style="text-align:justify;">הָֽאוֹיֵ֨ב | תַּ֥מּוּ חֳרָב֗וֹת לָ֫נֶ֥צַח וְעָרִ֥ים נָתַ֑שְׁתָּ אָבַ֖ד זִכְרָ֣ם הֵֽמָּה:</span></font><br clear="none"></div><div dir="rtl" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span style="font-size:28px;text-align:justify;font-family:Ezra SIL SR;"><br clear="none"></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">How is it possible that we have two Ole Veyored (actually, the first one is Temurat Ole VeYored) at the same pasuk?</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">See the pasuk from Tehulim 98:1</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="rtl"><font size="4" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;">מִזְמ֡וֹר</span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;"> </span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;">שִׁ֤ירוּ</span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;"> לַֽיהוָ֨ה ׀ שִׁ֣יר חָ֭דָשׁ כִּֽי־נִפְלָא֣וֹת עָשָׂ֑ה הוֹשִֽׁיעָה־לּ֥וֹ יְ֝מִינ֗וֹ וּזְר֥וֹעַ קׇדְשֽׁוֹ׃</span></font><br clear="none"></div><div dir="rtl" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;"><br clear="none"></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">How is it possible to have two Etnach (actually, the first one is Temurat Etnach) at the same pasuk?</span></span><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">See Mishlei 30:15</span></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></span></span></div><div dir="rtl"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);"><font size="4" style="background-color:inherit;" face="Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif"><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;">לַֽעֲלוּקָ֨ה</span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);text-align:right;"> ׀ שְׁתֵּ֥י בָנוֹת֮ הַ֤ב ׀ הַ֥ב שָׁל֣וֹשׁ הֵ֭נָּה לֹ֣א תִשְׂבַּ֑עְנָה אַ֝רְבַּ֗ע לֹא־אָ֥מְרוּ הֽוֹן׃</span></font><br clear="none"></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">The second "Hav" is Ole VeYored. </div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">LaAluka is a title, in my opinion (like "LeDavid"), and the trope is Azla LeGarme, functions as a Temurat Ole VeYored. How is it possible to have two Ole VeYored (one is temurat Ole VeYored) in the same pasuk?</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">All the above is guide me to think that the Temura is not 100% Temura. It does not take with it all the rules of the trops, of which she replacing.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">So, the pazer on the word LeDavid" in Pasuk 28:1, is Temurat Etnach? Is it Temurat Ole Veyored? or may be we need to consider it not completely as Temura of either one. The pazer here is a strong mafsik. If you do not see it as 100% the replacement of Etnach, then there is no reason why it win ill not come to the right of Ole VeYored.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">By the way, seems to me that also the trop Shalshelet in the 21 sefarim, is no 100% temurat Segol. It is stronger.</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;">Kol Tuv,</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></span></span></div><div dir="ltr" style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-size:16px;font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;" class="ydp9a4e6088yiv5767852434ydpd12e9755yiv0875903653ydp844b7241yiv8946352858ydp3acbf212signature"><div style="color:black;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-family:arial;">Aharon Gal<div>201-414-7190</div></div></div></div>
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