<html><head></head><body><div class="ydp521cfcd8yahoo-style-wrap" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><div><div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Very nice !</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">I am not sure if Breuer was right about these two verses.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">No doubt that these two are exceptions.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">The question is, what is the exception?</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Is it what Breuer wrote in his book?</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Or</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Pazer in these two verses came instead of Etnach, and the exception is that here we have Etnach to the right side of Ole Veyored, and we have two Etnach in one pasuk.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">Either way, it shows us that Pazer and Azla LeGarme are not complete Temurot.</div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false"><br></div><div dir="ltr" data-setdir="false">thanks</div><div><br></div><div class="ydpf9b6f684signature"><div style="color: black; font-stretch: normal; font-size: 10pt; line-height: normal; font-family: arial;">Aharon Gal<div>201-414-7190</div></div></div></div><div><br style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 16px;"></div></div><br></div><div><br></div></div>
<div><br></div><div><br></div>
</div><div id="ydp81b697ccyahoo_quoted_0896242178" class="ydp81b697ccyahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>
On Tuesday, November 21, 2023 at 07:28:43 AM EST, Yitzchak Gottlieb <zukigottlieb@gmail.com> wrote:
</div>
<div><br></div>
<div><br></div>
<div><div id="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201"><div>I don't have an answer, but Breuer (pg 315) has this פסוק as an exception in two ways:<div><br clear="none"></div><div>1. One of two places a פזר is a תמורה for an עולה ויורד.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>2. The only place where an עולה ויורד splits a מלך rather than a whole פסוק.</div><div><br clear="none"></div><div>Zuki<br clear="none"><br clear="none"><div dir="ltr"><div><span style="font-size:13pt;">-- </span></div><div><span style="font-size:13pt;">Yitzchak M. Gottlieb</span></div><div>zukigottlieb@gmail.com</div></div><div dir="ltr"><div id="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201yqtfd46034" class="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201yqt0723232748"><br clear="none"><blockquote type="cite">On Nov 21, 2023, at 03:50, galsaba--- via Mesorah <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></blockquote></div></div><div id="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201yqtfd10675" class="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201yqt0723232748"><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;" class="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydpfe014c57yahoo-style-wrap"><div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;">I have a question regarding the following pasuk:</div><div dir="rtl" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;">"לְדָוִ֡ד</span></span></div><div dir="rtl" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;"> </span><span style="font-weight:bolder;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;">אֵ֘לֶ֤יךָ</span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;"> יְדוָ֨ד ׀ אֶקְרָ֗א </span><span style="font-weight:bolder;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;">צוּרִי֮</span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;"> </span><span style="font-weight:bolder;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;">אַֽל־</span><span style="font-weight:bolder;color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;">תֶּחֱרַ֪שׁ</span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;"> מִ֫מֶּ֥נִּי </span></span></div><div dir="rtl" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><span><span style="color:rgb(0, 0, 0);font-family:Roboto, sans-serif;font-size:20px;text-align:right;"> פֶּן־תֶּֽחֱשֶׁ֥ה מִמֶּ֑נִּי וְ֝נִמְשַׁ֗לְתִּי עִם־י֥וֹרְדֵי בֽוֹר׃" (תהילים כח:א)</span></span><br clear="none"></div><div style="text-align:left;">I put the spaces as they appear in Tehilim The edition on Mosad HaRav Kuk.</div><div style="text-align:left;">It is clear that there is a long pause after "LeDavid". The reason is the ta'am Pazer. Ta'am pazer when it "rules" just its own word, ie, there is no any word before it, in this case this trope is not a "shalish" (the weakest level), but it is the "temura" ("replacement") of the Etnach.<br clear="none"></div><div style="text-align:left;"><br clear="none"></div><div style="text-align:left;">In this case, how it is possible that Etnach (its "temura") will appear before the trop Ole VeYored?</div><div style="text-align:left;">How it is possible to have two Etnach (one is a temura) in the same pasuk?</div><div dir="ltr" style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;" class="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydpfe014c57signature"><div style="color:black;font-style:normal;font-weight:normal;font-stretch:normal;font-size:10pt;line-height:normal;font-family:arial;">Aharon Gal<div>201-414-7190</div></div></div></div>
<div style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></div><div style="font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><br clear="none"></div>
</div><div id="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayahoo_quoted_0790592897" class="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayahoo_quoted">
<div style="font-family:'Helvetica Neue', Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif;font-size:13px;color:#26282a;">
<div>
On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 11:11:20 AM EDT, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon via Mesorah <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
</div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div><div id="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayiv7652351431"><div><div dir="ltr"></div><div dir="ltr">This isn’t really a dikduk question. Without nikkud, the morphology is not fully specified. It is a compositional question. Which meaning of the word gives an idiomatically correct sentence. The answer to this, I think, relies as much on the use of the word מפי as the form of למדן. The broader context could also help. In other words, you could know every page of a reference grammar inside and out, and still not be able to answer this question.</div><div dir="ltr">Jeremy </div><div id="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayiv7652351431yqt42763" class="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayiv7652351431yqt6689935027"><div dir="ltr"><br clear="none"><blockquote type="cite">On Sep 13, 2022, at 10:37 AM, micha--- via Mesorah <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br clear="none"><br clear="none"></blockquote></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr">
</div></blockquote></div></div><div id="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayiv7652351431yqt47967" class="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayiv7652351431yqt6689935027"><div><div>---------- Forwarded message ----------<br clear="none">
<b>From:</b> Zvi Lampel <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:zvilampel@gmail.com" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">zvilampel@gmail.com</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Date:</b> Sep 13, 2022, 9:49 AM -0400<br clear="none">
<b>To:</b> Micha Berger <<a shape="rect" href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">micha@aishdas.org</a>><br clear="none">
<b>Subject:</b> A dikduk question<br clear="none">
<br clear="none">
<blockquote type="cite" style="border-left-color:grey;border-left-width:thin;border-left-style:solid;margin:5px 5px;padding-left:10px;">
<div>Hi, Micha.
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div>Could you forward this question to those who would have an answer? </div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div>In this sentence,</div>
<div>וכולן למדן משה רבינו ע''ה מפי הגבורה</div>
<div>does למדן mean ''he learned them''' or ''he taught them'''? (Nikud is not given.)</div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div>Thanks,</div>
<div><br clear="none"></div>
<div>Zvi Lampel <br clear="none">
<div><br clear="none"></div>
</div>
</div>
</blockquote>
</div>
<span>_______________________________________________</span><br clear="none"><span>Mesorah mailing list</span><br clear="none"><span><a shape="rect" href="mailto:Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a></span><br clear="none"><span><a shape="rect" href="https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org__;!!BhJSzQqDqA!RzUh0IwM2l3_GU2S_5byzVSxUqJxl9gBp-ufbu3ck6OqVB4lz6wAwMCxjnQORTmFMatn04ky7vyTdGcesJEUljQp$" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org__;!!BhJSzQqDqA!RzUh0IwM2l3_GU2S_5byzVSxUqJxl9gBp-ufbu3ck6OqVB4lz6wAwMCxjnQORTmFMatn04ky7vyTdGcesJEUljQp$</a> </span><br clear="none"></div></div></div><div id="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayqt64215" class="ydp81b697ccyiv8423470201ydp3d7c50aayqt6689935027">_______________________________________________<br clear="none">Mesorah mailing list<br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="mailto:Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a><br clear="none"><a shape="rect" href="http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org</a><br clear="none"></div></div>
</div>
</div><span>_______________________________________________</span><br clear="none"><span>Mesorah mailing list</span><br clear="none"><span>Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</span><br clear="none"><span>http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org</span><br clear="none"></div></blockquote></div></div></div></div></div>
</div>
</div></body></html>