<html><head><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"></head><body dir="auto"><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" original_font_attr="12pt" original_line_height_attr="">It means neither,</div>
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The truth trumps everything, because the Torah is always true.</div>
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Once it was decided that we pasken like Aharon ben Asher and we have a manuscript that he himself wrote, the story is finished.</div>
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Other Rishonim, had they had the mss. as the Rambam did, would not have disagreed. >></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" original_font_attr="12pt" original_line_height_attr=""><br></div><div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt;" original_font_attr="12pt" original_line_height_attr="">well I'm not convinced</div></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I had a private conversation with an Orthodox bible prof and he said</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">"For me it's all about the quality of the manuscriot"</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I told him about some German customs</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">and he then said </div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">"That's where community Minhog comes in..."</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">He clearly did not presume that superior Mss. Trumped existing established customs.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">It's also not clear about repeating bifeihem and lifnehem and unlikely to uproot Zecher vs. Zeicher</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><<Other Rishonim, had they had the mss. as the Rambam did, would not have disagreed>></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">how do we know this?</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto">I once presumed that The Rav MIGHT have changed his mind about a matter of Mingagand I was excoriated for presuming he MIGHT change his mind.</div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div dir="auto"><br></div><div id="composer_signature" dir="auto"><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8">RRW</div><div><br></div><div style="font-size:100%;color:#000000" dir="auto"><!-- originalMessage --><div>-------- Original message --------</div><div>From: "Mandel, Seth" <mandels@ou.org> </div><div>Date: 11/11/19 11:19 (GMT-05:00) </div><div>To: rabbirichwolpoe <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>, dovbbb@gmail.com, Danny Levy <danestlev@gmail.com> </div><div>Cc: Moshe Bloom <moshebl@gmail.com>, mesorah@aishdas.org, Mesorah Email List <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org>, "Pickholtz, Ritchie" <IsraelP@pikholz.org>, "Shanoon, Elihu" <elihu@saad.org.il>, Chaya Bloom-Schorer <chayabloom@gmail.com>, Levmore david <dlevmore@gmail.com>, Sandy K Bloom <sandykbloom@gmail.com> </div><div>Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Is the Masoretic text the most authentic? </div><div><br></div></div>
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It means neither,</div>
<div style="font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12pt; color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">
The truth trumps everything, because the Torah is always true.</div>
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Once it was decided that we pasken like Aharon ben Asher and we have a manuscript that he himself wrote, the story is finished.</div>
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Other Rishonim, had they had the mss. as the Rambam did, would not have disagreed.
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<div class="PlainText"><font size="3" face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif"><span style="font-size:12pt">Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel</span><br>
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<span style="font-size:12pt">Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330 e-mail mandels@ou.org</span></font></div>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> rabbirichwolpoe <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, November 11, 2019 9:31 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mandel, Seth <mandels@ou.org>; dovbbb@gmail.com <dovbbb@gmail.com>; Danny Levy <danestlev@gmail.com><br>
<b>Cc:</b> Moshe Bloom <moshebl@gmail.com>; mesorah@aishdas.org <mesorah@aishdas.org>; Mesorah Email List <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org>; Pickholtz, Ritchie <IsraelP@pikholz.org>; Shanoon, Elihu <elihu@saad.org.il>; Chaya Bloom-Schorer <chayabloom@gmail.com>;
Levmore david <dlevmore@gmail.com>; Sandy K Bloom <sandykbloom@gmail.com><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] Is the Masoretic text the most authentic?</font>
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<div dir="auto">The fact that Tosfos may have done so does not justify it nowadays when we have so much more from the Masorah from mss than Tosfos did. >></div>
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<div dir="auto">So does this mean that</div>
<div dir="auto">quality of mss. trumps</div>
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<div dir="auto">1. Minhag?</div>
<div dir="auto">2. Poskim?</div>
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<div id="x_composer_signature" dir="auto">RRW</div>
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<div>-------- Original message --------</div>
<div>From: "Mandel, Seth via Mesorah" <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org> </div>
<div>Date: 11/10/19 19:59 (GMT-05:00) </div>
<div>To: dovbbb@gmail.com, Danny Levy <danestlev@gmail.com> </div>
<div>Cc: Moshe Bloom <moshebl@gmail.com>, mesorah@aishdas.org, Mesorah Email List <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org>, "Pickholtz, Ritchie" <IsraelP@pikholz.org>, "Shanoon, Elihu" <elihu@saad.org.il>, Chaya Bloom-Schorer <chayabloom@gmail.com>, Levmore david <dlevmore@gmail.com>,
Sandy K Bloom <sandykbloom@gmail.com> </div>
<div>Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Is the Masoretic text the most authentic? </div>
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<div dir="ltr">It is the fact that the ba’alei haNasorah worked so hard at establishing the correct text (almost superhumanly) that R. Bloom refers to that won them the allegiance of the poskim.
<div dir="ltr">I also found it rather ludicrous that a rabbi would claim that all the different versions were correct. The fact that Tosfos may have done so does not justify it nowadays when we have so much more from the Masorah from mss than Tosfos did. </div>
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<div class="x_null" dir="auto">On November 10, 2019 at 7:50:49 PM EST, Dov Bloom via Mesorah <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:<br class="x_null">
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<div dir="auto" class="x_null">It seems surprising that an ostensibly knowledgeable person would try to claim that the Massoretic text means nothing, and any other version is equal to it, being 'eilu veeilu divrei elokim haim'.
<div dir="auto" class="x_null">Look at any of the hachamim of the Mesorah, how they struggle to establish what the correct MT is, and never come up with a response 'who cares, eilu veeilu...'.</div>
<div dir="auto" class="x_null">Look at the Ramah (with a heh, not with an aleph; R Meir HaLevi Abulafia) in Massoret Syag laTora, or the Minhat Shai, or the Keset Sofer (R Shlomo Ganzfried, author of the Kitzur SA). They all toil to pinpoint the correct Massoretic
text. Using all the sources they have at hand, specifically:</div>
<div dir="auto" class="x_null">1. good established texts, </div>
<div dir="auto" class="x_null">2. <span class="x_null" style="font-family:sans-serif">Massoretic comments (masorah gedola/ktana/sofit/ochla ve'ochla)</span> </div>
<div dir="auto" class="x_null">3. other <span class="x_null" style="font-family:sans-serif">Massoretic Rishonim/Massoretic Acharonim</span></div>
<div dir="auto" class="x_null">4. sometimes other sources:Gmara Midrash Rishonim</div>
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<div dir="auto" class="x_null">See for example the Massoretic scholars struggle with the spelling of the word Mezuzot: the Minhat Shai on Shemot 12:7 (pages 172-174 in the excellent Betzer edition of the Minhat Shai) and the Keset Sofer on Dvarim 6:9 (pages
117b to 118b in my edition, a facsimile version of the classic mahadura tinyono with the haskama of the Hatam Sofer). </div>
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<div dir="auto" class="x_null">No one ever says "any version is equally fine, eilu veveilu.." They struggle to establish the correct MT.</div>
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<div dir="auto" class="x_null">I am aware that sometimes the poskim will conclude 'both are OK', like when deciding about a sefer Torah that has different parshiot petuchot/stumot, some poskim not being willing or able to decide between the Rosh and Rambam.
Some poskim even saying any sefer you find with different petuchot/stumot is kosher becaus it probably is based on some rishon. But these statements are 1. often in cases of bedi-eved (bediavad) 2. don't reflect the enormous efforts of the chachmei haMassora
in almost all cases to establish THE correct version.</div>
<div dir="auto" class="x_null">So to make these exceptional statements (eilu ve'eilu) the norm seems to me to be incorrect.</div>
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<div dir="auto" class="x_null">N. B. WRT places where the <span class="x_null" style="font-family:sans-serif">Shas seems</span> to reflect a different text from the Messora: there is a voluminous discusdion of this over hundreds of years and it deserves its
own thread, or really it's own book. </div>
<div dir="auto" class="x_null">See for a teaser the in-passing comments of Eliyahu Levitas HaBachur in his Sefer Massoret HaMassoret(1538, 5299), section Luchot Rishonot, subsection Dibur shishi, where he mentions the phenomenon.</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_null">On Sun, Nov 10, 2019, 22:42 Danny Levy via Mesorah <<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" class="x_null">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br class="x_null">
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_null">I recently had a fascinating discussion with Rabbi Yitzchak Goldstein, head of Machon Ott (see
<a href="https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ott.co.il&d=DwMFaQ&c=VTwaeXjOsAHot2hQQ0nozrBJwyviuCtydNuGwYGfYiI&r=e6XbAQdGwcl_5FMtQ-t1eA&m=FclVTbdDzJbru9g7YyIHhTPs5YLN6SjQrXhV7_xPRiM&s=2frxVL22b06L01GohaYtpfEz7u-n9eL-CNVg-6WDkuA&e=" rel="noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer noreferrer" target="_BLANK" class="x_null">
ott.co.il</a>), who is very knowledgeable about differences in minhagim of writing Sifrei Torah among the various communities over hundreds of years.</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_null">I mentioned to him that every year on Shabbat Noach I feel a twinge of sadness when I hear the Ba'al Kore lein "Vayhi kol y'mei Noach" (9:29), considering the work of R. Breuer and others who have proven conclusively that the text
in Yemenite Sifrei Torah, "Vayihyu kol y'mei Noach", is that of the Ba'alei Hamesorah. His response was "Eilu v'eilu divrei Elokim chaim" and our text is no less authentic than any other. To illustrate his point he mentioned a number of places in the Gemara
where it is evident that Chaza"l and the Rishonim had texts or spellings that were different from what we have today and different from the Masoretic text (R. Akiva Eiger gives a long list of examples in Gilyon Hashass on Shabbat 55b). He also mentioned the
fact that the Aleppo community preserved the Sephardic tradition of writing Sifrei Torah and did not correct them according the Aleppo Codex despite their tradition (now confirmed) that it was the Tanach that the Rambam relied on in his Hilchot Sefer Torah
as being the most accurate. </div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_null">I would welcome input from group members on this interesting question: is the Masoretic text the closest we can get to the text of the Torah given to Moshe Rabbeinu or is it just one tradition, not necessarily preferable to others?</div>
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<div dir="ltr" class="x_null">Danny Levy</div>
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