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<div dir="ltr">Again, I mean no disrespect. One can be a great Talmud chichón without knowing how to sharpen a shechita knife, or to circumcise, or to write Aramaic.
<div dir="ltr">But facts are facts. </div>
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<div class="null" dir="auto">On September 13, 2019 at 3:09:17 PM EDT, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:<br class="null">
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<div dir="ltr" class="null">You have to be really familiar with it, the way that Chazal were, almost know it by heart.
<div dir="ltr" class="null">But forget theory: none of the rabbis who discuss Kaddish so much as mentions it. They all talk about the sevoro in Tosfos that maybe it is Shem + Koh. And they say without that there would be no mappiq. </div>
<div dir="ltr" class="null">You explain that to me. </div>
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<div class="null" dir="auto">On September 13, 2019 at 2:53:51 PM EDT, Sholom Simon <sholom90@gmail.com> wrote:<br class="null">
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<div class="null">Yes, I can understand that many lost the ability vis-a-vis Aramaic beyond Gemara . . .
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<div class="null">But, how much of a boki does one need to be to see a connection between Doniel 2:20 and "yehei shemei..." from kaddish?<br class="null">
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<div dir="ltr" class="null">On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:40 PM Mandel, Seth <<a href="mailto:mandels@ou.org" class="null">mandels@ou.org</a>> wrote:<br class="null">
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Rashi, ibn Ezra, yes. Most other Ashkenaz rabbonim knew Doniel and its language the same way they knew G'moro. They learned it with a perush, but if you asked them to write a sentence in Aramaic, or given them an Aramaic inscription, they would not have been
able to do it.</div>
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No different that rabbis of today, some of whom are "boki in Shas." Give them any G'rmor, they will tell you what it means. Ask them to write a sentence in Hebrew, they will do it without a problem. Ask them to write a sentence in Aramaic, they will not
be able to. Give them something in Aramaic not in Sha's, they will struggle with it and may or may not be able to make any sense out of it.</div>
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Go ahead, try it on most any rabbi that you know. <br class="null">
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I do not mean that in practice; you are not allowed to embarrass people. But if you talk with them, most will tell you. And if you give them quotations from Doniel, many will struggle with them, even though they learned it with Rashi Once Upon a Time.</div>
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I mean no disrespect. I mean that no one is taught basic Aramaic, even of the Targum, and no one has been taught it for hundreds of years. In Brisk they forced you to learn Doniel and Ezra and Nehemiah, but I strongly doubt if many could write a sentence
in Aramaic.</div>
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There doubtless were some exceptions.<br class="null">
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<div class="null"><font size="3" face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="null"><span class="null" style="font-size:12pt">Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel</span><br class="null">
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<div id="gmail-m_-8896748558735722333divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr" class="null"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" class="null" style="font-size:11pt"><b class="null">From:</b> Sholom Simon <<a href="mailto:sholom@aishdas.org" class="null">sholom@aishdas.org</a>><br class="null">
<b class="null">Sent:</b> Friday, September 13, 2019 2:14 PM<br class="null">
<b class="null">To:</b> Mandel, Seth <<a href="mailto:mandels@ou.org" class="null">mandels@ou.org</a>>; Mesorah AishDas List <<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" class="null">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br class="null">
<b class="null">Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] Yehei shemeih rabb</font>
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<div dir="ltr" class="null">Naive question here . . . what do you mean by: "most Ashkenazi rabbonim did not know Doniel in the Aramaic". The Rishonim were mefeirush on that sefer (as one can see in a Mikraos G'dolos -- Rashi, ibn Ezra, etc). The achronim
certainly must have been aware of this, no?<br class="null">
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<div dir="ltr" class="null">On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 11:17 AM Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" class="null">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br class="null">
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BTW, the nusakh of the Qaddish is probably based on Doniel 2:20: "may the name of God be blessed for ever and ever."</div>
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As noted, most Ashkenazi rabbonim did not know Doniel in the Aramaic, and so this posuq, which should have been mentioned by everyone, is missing in the sources most people see.<br class="null">
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<div class="null"><font size="3" face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" class="null"><span class="null" style="font-size:12pt">Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel</span><br class="null">
<span class="null" style="font-size:12pt">Rabbinic Coordinator</span><br class="null">
<span class="null" style="font-size:12pt">The Orthodox Union</span><br class="null">
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<font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" class="null" style="font-size:11pt"><b class="null">From:</b> Mesorah <<a href="mailto:mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org" class="null">mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org</a>> on behalf of Mandel, Seth via Mesorah
<<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" class="null">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>><br class="null">
<b class="null">Sent:</b> Wednesday, September 11, 2019 12:31 PM<br class="null">
<b class="null">To:</b> Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org" class="null">micha@aishdas.org</a>>;
<a href="mailto:mesorah@aishdas.org" class="null">mesorah@aishdas.org</a> <<a href="mailto:mesorah@aishdas.org" class="null">mesorah@aishdas.org</a>><br class="null">
<b class="null">Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] Yehei shemeih rabb</font>
<div class="null"> </div>
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<div class="null">
<div dir="ltr" class="null">All people view the world through the things they have been taught.
<div dir="ltr" class="null">Most rabbis were not linguists and their comments reflect their understanding of things. Without understanding linguistics, rabbis got the idea that they could kav’yokhol “pasen” questions in grammar. It is not the AhS’s fault:
rabbis have been doing it for several hundred years. </div>
<div dir="ltr" class="null">To “pasken” that one uses a form in a specific nusakh rests on a misconception. It requires intensive research into the origins of nuskh’os. That required spending months or longer in libraries with old mss., most of which were far
from the centers of Jewish population centers. The Vilner Gaon at least made the effort. </div>
<div dir="ltr" class="null">But the Vilner Gaon’s decisión that one should use a tzere in the first two words of qaddish was not based on any old mss. There are none that had a tzere. It was bSed partially on the Qabbolo of the Ari which attributed various
mystical meanings for many vowels and partially on the fact that the T’NaKh did NOT use the normal vowels in v’hitgaddilti v’hitqaddishti. That was his decision, but no old mss. supoported it (the first use of such vowels was by the Ari, which is not what
is called an “old mss.”</div>
<div dir="ltr" class="null">The AhS based himself on the Gaon; there was no other source. </div>
<div dir="ltr" class="null">Sh’mey rabbo means “the Heavens if the Great One.” Although it has a meaning, it is clearly not te original meaning, which has Hebrew parallels from the time of Chazal “May His Great Name be exalted.” Again, all old mss. have a
mappiq. The AhS was led astray by his own theories about qaddish should mean. </div>
<div dir="ltr" class="null">He is not the first nor the last rabbi who thinks they should change a nussakh based on their own theories. </div>
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<div class="null" dir="auto">On September 10, 2019 at 9:52:25 PM EDT, Micha Berger via Mesorah <<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" class="null">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br class="null">
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<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext">The AhS makes three grammatical comments about Qaddish:<br class="null">
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1- Yigadeil veyisqadeish – with tzeirei</span></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext">2- The Rama puts the comma after “yehei shemeih rabba mevorakh”</span></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext">3- Shemeih does not get a mapiq hei</span></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext">I don’t understanding #3.</span></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><i class="null"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext">Tir'u baTov!</span></i></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><b class="null"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Comic Sans MS"; color:windowtext">-Micha</span></b></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Consolas; color:windowtext"> </span></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:Consolas; color:windowtext">--</span></p>
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<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext">Micha Berger</span></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Calibri",sans-serif; color:windowtext"><a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org" class="null"><span class="null" style="font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif">micha@aishdas.org</span></a></span><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext"></span></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext">Author: Widen Your Tent</span></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext"> -
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<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><i class="null"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext">How wonderful it is that</span></i></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><i class="null"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext">nobody need wait a single moment</span></i></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><i class="null"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext">before starting to improve the world.</span></i></p>
<p class="null" style="margin:0px"><i class="null"><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext"> - Anne Frank
<sup class="null">Hy"d</sup></span></i><span class="null" style="font-size:11pt; font-family:"Verdana",sans-serif; color:windowtext"></span></p>
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