<div dir="rtl"><div dir="rtl"><br></div><br><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr"><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><div class="gmail_attr">‫בתאריך יום ד׳, 17 באפר׳ 2019 ב-22:18 מאת ‪Micha Berger‬‏ <‪<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>‬‏>:‬</div></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Wed, Apr 17, 2019 at 09:32:01PM +0300, Danny Levy via Mesorah wrote:</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
: One of the rules of trop (a masoretic rule by all counts) that is easily</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
: verified by looking anywhere in Tanach (except for Sifrei Eme"t) is that</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
: the mesharet of a tvir is a darga if the te'amim are separated by two or</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
: more syllables...</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
That's not a rule of the Baalei Mesorah, really. It's a pattern that</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
fits the data. You don't know if they had it in mind or not.</blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr"><br>True, but it does illustrate that the Kimchi rules differed from the pronunciation at the time of the Baalei Hamesorah. <br></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr"><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Exactly what RYQ set out to do -- find rules that fit the data.</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">....</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
We have no indication he set out to create a different set of open and</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
closed syllable. Just a different way of thinking about them, one with</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
a clearer theoretical consistency.</blockquote><div><br></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr">But the result was a change in pronunciation. <br></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr"><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
:                     In this rule a shva na is counted as a syllable,</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
: whether it is a shva na at the beginning of a word (e.g. Gen 15:7 and Num</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
: 17:11) or a shva na under a letter with a dagesh chazak (e.g. Num 34:5 and</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
: Deut 1:30).</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
: A shva after a Kimchi long vowel, however, is not counted as a syllable,</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
: e.g in Ex 9:15 and 12:22.  Evidently the Ba'alei Hamesorah considered such</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
: a shva to be nach.</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
Or, that your opening explanation, that it is about the number of</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
syllables that makes the meshareis of a tevir to be a darga is incorrect</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
according to RYQ. </blockquote><div><br></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr">What else could it be?<br> <br></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr"><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Or, as per</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<<a href="https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D7%98%D7%A2%D7%9E%D7%99_%D7%94%D7%9E%D7%A7%D7%A8%D7%90#%D7%94%D7%A8%D7%9B%D7%91%D7%99_%D7%94%D7%98%D7%A2%D7%9E%D7%99%D7%9D" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://he.wikipedia.org/wiki/טעמי_המקרא#הרכבי_הטעמים</a>>, that rule is</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
about distinguishing qadma-merkha-tevir from qadma-darga-tevir, and so</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
your examples aren't in scope.</blockquote><div><br></div></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr">This is not correct.  I didn't have the time to look for the relevant section in the long essay that you referenced, but it is clearly evident if you check any parsha in Tanakh that the rule holds just as well without a preceeding qadma.  I am more familiar with R. Breuer's essay on trop in the first Breshit volume of Daat Mikra and I found it there with no mention of the qadma. <br></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr"><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
As I have been saying since the start... how can we talk about anyone</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
contradicting "Mesoretic Rules" without having an identifiable list of</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
rules made by Mesoretes?</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
All we have is various sets of rules that do a better or worse job of</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
explaining how various texts are read. And the only question is whether</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
a set of rules overall tends to violate the readings the Mesoretes gave</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
those texts too often to be usable even in the "rule of grammar" sense</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
of violatable rule.</blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote">In this case the Masoretic "rule" is no less consistent than the Kimchi rule, and the dissonance between the two is unmistakable.</div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote">Chag Kasher V'sameakh,</div><div class="gmail_quote"><br></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote">Danny</div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px" dir="ltr"><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote><blockquote style="margin:0 0 0 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote></div></blockquote></blockquote></div>