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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">You did not completely understand my thoughts.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I brought the Rambam to show how marriage and divorce are defined mainly in terms of living together, and that is the understanding reflected in the Targum. IOW, the Targum takes the Hebrew as meaning "as a young man
marries a young lady." And that therefore the traditional Jewish understanding of the posuq did not contain any sexual imagery at all.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">But the verb b‘l clearly is used to refer to sexual relationships much earlier than Y'sha‘yah. The posuq about the case of y'fas to'ar in Deut. 21:13 reads
<br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span>וְאַחַר כֵּן תָּבוֹא אֵלֶיהָ וּבְעַלְתָּהּ וְהָיְתָה לְךָ, לְאִשָּׁה.
</span><br>
</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span>and the Targum there reads</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span><span>וּבָתַר כֵּין תֵּיעוֹל לְוָתַהּ וְתִבְעֲלִנַּהּ וּתְהֵי לָךְ לְאִתּוּ</span>.</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span>What the Targum is saying is that the relations make her 'eshes ish.<br>
</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span>So since the sexual meaning of the verb is established in T'NaKh Hebrew, I do not see why you are bringing in its usage in L'shon Chazal.</span></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0"><span>As to whether the Prophet Y'sha‘yah intended any sexual imagery in the posuq, you would have to ask him. It is clear that the traditional Jewish understanding of the posuq did not contain any sexual connotations.<br>
</span></p>
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<div class="PlainText"><font face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" size="3">Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel</font><br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Tuesday, February 13, 2018 10:58 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mandel, Seth<br>
<b>Cc:</b> mesorah@aishdas.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] Translation of the verb "yiv'al"</font>
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<div class="PlainText">On Tue, Feb 13, 2018 at 02:50:41PM +0000, Mandel, Seth wrote:<br>
: But why does no one mention the earliest source, the Targum (attributed to Yonasan)?<br>
<br>
But it WAS discussed!<br>
<br>
The problem is that TY (or TpJ, if you prefer) is not a translation but<br>
a peirus, when it comes to metaphoric pesuqim, and certainly so when<br>
anthropomorphications are involved, like in the nimshalim here.<br>
<br>
Same problem with meforashim. We don't know how literal they're trying<br>
to be. We do know they're trying to explain that the bachur and<br>
besulah aren't premarital, as that would make a horrible mashal.<br>
<br>
For that matter, Radaq uses the word chupah, but leshitaso, halachic<br>
chuppah is yichud.<br>
<br>
: Of course, you can choose whatever d'rosho you want. But the Targum represents how Jews understood it in the time of the Ge'onim. And that fits in exactly with how marriage was defined before Mattan Torah and is still defined for B'nei Noach:<br>
<br>
Except we aren't asking how marriage is defined. Notice that Rambam in<br>
you quotes doesn't use a verb form of \בעל\. Where he does, the Rambam uses<br>
the word as Chazal did. Dei'os 3:2, 3:19, or for that matter Sotah 2:3,<br>
which uses it on the other side of our very distinction:<br>
... נשואה שקנא לה ונסתרה קדם שיבעל אותה בעלה, אינה שותה ויוצאה בלא כתבה<br>
ואסורה עליו לעולם. שנאמר (במדבר ה כ) "ויתן איש בך את שכבתו מבלעדי אישך"<br>
-- שקדמה שכיבת בעל לשכיבת בועל:<br>
<br>
A nesu'ah, brought home but not niv'al, cannot be a Sotah.<br>
<br>
Your assumption is that "liv'ol" is "to make oneself ba'al". (I am not<br>
sure the voice is right. Wouldn't liv'ol be to make someone else the ba'al?<br>
But in either case...) I am asking HOW one can assume that. That's not<br>
Chazal's usage, so clean-slate reasoning wouldn't work to translate<br>
the word when learning shus uposqim.<br>
<br>
So to paraphrase my OP: How do we know when Chazal's usage began? Could<br>
it have been in use in Yeshaiah's day? Which is more indicative --<br>
how peirushim treat the word when explaining a mashal, or the only other<br>
usages of this shoresh as a verb (a millnnium later and onward)?<br>
<br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Micha Berger A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet<br>
micha@aishdas.org about things most people don't watch even on<br>
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: <br>
: הלכות אישות פרק א<br>
: <br>
: א,א קודם מתן תורה היה אדם פוגע אישה בשוק, אם רצה הוא והיא לישא אותה מכניסה לביתו ובועלה בינו לבין עצמו ותהיה לו לאישה. כיון שניתנה תורה נצטוו ישראל שאם ירצה האיש לישא אישה יקנה אותה תחילה בפני עדים, ואחר כך תהיה לו לאישה, שנאמר "כי ייקח איש אישה ובא אליה"
(דברים כב,יג).<br>
: <br>
: <br>
: Yes, the marriage has to be consummated, but the first thing is moving in together. And the converse is how gerushin worked before Mattan Torah, see Hil. M'lakhim, 9:8<br>
: <br>
: יב ומאימתיי תהיה אשת חברו כגרושה שלנו, משיוציאה מביתו וישלחנה לעצמה, או משתצא היא מתחת רשותו ותלך לה, שאין לה גירושין בכתב; ואין הדבר תלוי בו בלבד, אלא כל זמן שירצה הוא או היא לפרוש זה מזה פורשין.<br>
: <br>
: <br>
: <br>
: <br>
: Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel<br>
: Rabbinic Coordinator<br>
: The Orthodox Union<br>
: <br>
: Voice (212) 613-8330 Fax (212) 613-0718 e-mail mandels@ou.org<br>
: <br>
: <br>
: ________________________________<br>
: From: Mesorah <mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org> on behalf of Micha Berger via Mesorah <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
: Sent: Monday, February 12, 2018 6:09 PM<br>
: To: Zev Sero<br>
: Cc: mesorah@lists.aishdas.org<br>
: Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Translation of the verb "yiv'al"<br>
: <br>
: On Mon, Feb 12, 2018 at 04:44:50PM -0500, Zev Sero via Mesorah wrote:<br>
: : On 12/02/18 16:14, Micha Berger via Mesorah wrote:<br>
: : >In leshon Chazal, the term be'ilah / bo'el refers to marital intimacy.<br>
: : ><br>
: : >What about in Yeshaiah 62:5?<br>
: : ><br>
: : >כי-יבעל בחור בתולה יבעלוך בניך, ומשוש חתן על-כלה ישיש עליך אלקיך<br>
: :<br>
: : See Yonasan, Rashi, Metzudos, Radak, all of whom translate it as<br>
: : living together, settling down into the same home.<br>
: <br>
: Actually TY (and Rashi, who quotes him verbatum) could be euphamistically<br>
: phrased, just like "living with" does today. (A couple of decades<br>
: ago?) No mention of the noun "home". And the seifa of the pasuq is a<br>
: word-for-word translation, not much help.<br>
: <br>
: Radaq uses the word "yiv'al", which doesn't say much about translating. If<br>
: anything, it may imply he believes the word did NOT change meaning in<br>
: Chazal's hands. Anyway, his comment on the paralleling 2nd clause is<br>
: just about how there is more sason vesimchah biymei chupasahh, because<br>
: they are new. Again, not much help with translating the pasuq.<br>
: <br>
: Metzidas David: misyashvim yachad mibeli pirud. Live in the same home<br>
: and never part, or intimacy without clothing separating them?<br>
: <br>
: So, I had hit the rishonim Sefaria offered, and still wasn't sure.<br>
: <br>
: R' Berechyah (Devarim Rabba 2:37) lists the 10 times in Tanakh BY are<br>
: called a kallah. Obviously a lot of them are from Shir haShirim. This<br>
: pasuq is on the list as well. The notion that this imagery is meant<br>
: eroically is of a kind (if more explicit) than "mah yafu dodayikh achosi<br>
: khalah", from the same list.<br>
: <br>
: Tir'u baTov!<br>
: -Micha<br>
: <br>
: --<br>
: Micha Berger A pious Jew is not one who worries about his fellow<br>
: micha@aishdas.org man's soul and his own stomach; a pious Jew worries<br>
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