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<blockquote type="cite" style="color:rgb(34,34,34);font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.8px;font-style:normal;font-variant-ligatures:normal;font-variant-caps:normal;font-weight:400;letter-spacing:normal;text-align:start;text-indent:0px;text-transform:none;white-space:normal;word-spacing:0px;background-color:rgb(255,255,255);text-decoration-style:initial;text-decoration-color:initial"><div><div id="gmail-m_366355041188665269divtagdefaultwrapper" dir="ltr" style="font-size:12pt;color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">>> Regarding the word "hamibb'li," all printed Chumashim have the punctuation as is above, with a hataph-patah under the he'.<p></p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">However, that is not the punctuation in the kisvei yad that represent the Ben-Asher masorah. Rather, all of them, without exception have a full patah — WITH a ge‘aya/AKA meteg. As the meritorious members of this group are aware, that means that the syllable "ha" is lengthened and has a secondary stress.<<</p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br></p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">--R' Seth Mandel</p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br></p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">.>>>>></p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br></p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">I am not in a position to weigh in on the dikduk or the trop here, but it occurs to me that there may be a semantic aspect to this discussion. Usually a "he-hasheila" indicates that what follows is a question, i.e., a request for information. But in this case the pasuk is not a request for information. It is a rhetorical question, a sarcastic statement in fact: "You had to bring us to the desert to die? What, there weren't enough graves in Egypt?!" And that's why here "a lengthened ha with a secondary stress" may be indicated, in contrast to the usual short ha with a chataf-patach when an ordinary question is being asked.</p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><br></p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px">--Toby Katz</p><p style="margin-top:0px;margin-bottom:0px"><a href="mailto:t613k@aol.com">t613k@aol.com</a></p></div></div></blockquote>
<br></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Sun, Jan 28, 2018 at 11:31 AM, Jeremy Rosenbaum Simon via Mesorah <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" target="_blank">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="auto"><div></div><div>Given that both R. Breuer and Bar Ilan have a chataf parachute, I find it difficult to credit you claim that _all_ ben Asher manuscripts have a full patach. Neither of them would have deviated from Leningrad, which indeed has a full patach, without good support. And dikduk rules would not factor significantly. </div><div><br></div><div>Jeremy</div><div><br>On Jan 28, 2018, at 11:11 AM, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" target="_blank">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div>
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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">I call it that because most people only care about masorah if it changes the meaning or the pronunciation.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">But the non-defenestrated denizens of the Mesorah group understand that the masorah is much deeper than such things, and is important in light of the number of rishonim who spent time on it.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">So I am mentioning something that I shamefully admit that I was unaware of all my years:</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">In the pasuq:</p>
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<b><span style="font-family:"David","sans-serif"" lang="HE">יד:יא</span></b><span style="font-family:"David","sans-serif"" lang="HE"> וַיֹּאמְרוּ, אֶל-מֹשֶׁה הֲמִבְּלִי אֵיןקְבָרִים בְּמִצְרַיִם לְקַחְתָּנוּ לָמוּת בַּמִּדְבָּר, מַה-זֹּאת עָשִׂיתָ לָּנוּ לְהוֹצִיאָנוּ
מִמִּצְרָיִם</span><span dir="LTR"></span><span dir="LTR" style="font-family:"David","sans-serif""><span dir="LTR"></span>.</span></p>
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regarding the word "hamibb'li," all printed Chumashim have the punctuation as is above, with a hataph-patah under the he'.
<p></p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">However, that is not the puncuation in the kisvei yad that represent the Ben-Asher masorah. Rather, all of them, without exception have a full patah — WITH a ge‘aya/AKA meteg. As the meritorious members of this group
are aware, that means that the syllable "ha" is lengthened and has a secondary stress.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">The Minchas Shai already noticed this issue. He notes that R. Yonah had it with a full patah, and it is the R'DaQ who says it should be a hataph-patah based on S'faradi mss. He even goes on to say that there are some
who claim that the ms. on which R.Yonah was basing himself was the Aleppo Codex. That means to me that the Minchas Shay, without being able to decide the matter, attaches serious weight to the view of R. Yonah.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">In any event, now we can be certain based on the better mss. that we have.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Prescriptive grammarians, who hold that the he' hash'elah should always have a hataph-patah, of course will be disturbed. But as we know, the Masorah did not believe in prescriptive grammar, only in descriptive.<br>
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<div class="m_366355041188665269PlainText"><font face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" size="3">Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel<br>
Rabbinic Coordinator<br>
The Orthodox Union<br>
</font><font face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif" size="3"><br>
Voice <a href="tel:(212)%20613-8330" value="+12126138330" target="_blank">(212) 613-8330</a> Fax <a href="tel:(212)%20613-0718" value="+12126130718" target="_blank">(212) 613-0718</a> e-mail <a href="mailto:mandels@ou.org" target="_blank">mandels@ou.org</a></font></div>
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