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<p style="margin-top:0;margin-bottom:0">Let me be clear that I am not saying that in the Masoretic mss. there are no examples of Meteg qal. There are some. But not many, and especially few in the Aleppo Codex. Many of the ones that are in the Codex are there
for reasons that are different from the "rules" of a meteg qal.<br>
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<div class="PlainText"><font size="3" face="Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif">Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel<br>
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<div id="divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Mandel, Seth<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 27, 2017 4:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Danny Levy; mesorah@lists.aishdas.org; Mesorah List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] mishneh-kesef</font>
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<p style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0">Besides, the "rules" for a meteg qal can scarcely be called rules. They are inventions of later grammarians. A "meteg qal" is very rare in the Aleppo Codex of Ben Asher. You can look at the page I sent, where there
are dozens of places where a "meteg qal" would occur, and I don't think that there is a ge‘aya in any of them.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0">The ge‘ayot appear in closed syllables in the Masoretic texts quite often. In T'hilla l'David you can see two of them in the mem pasuk: both in malkhutkha and in umemshalt'kha in the syllables beginning with mem, both
of which are closed according to the Masorah.<br>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Mandel, Seth<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 27, 2017 3:21 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Danny Levy; mesorah@lists.aishdas.org; Mesorah List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] mishneh-kesef</font>
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<p style="margin-top:0; margin-bottom:0">Your second explanation is closer to the truth, but it is not accurate. The first word loses its stress. Where the secondary stress reappears is by no means certain or subject to hard and fast rules; it is a matter
of the Masorah, which is why Ben Asher and Ben Naftali argue about so many ge‘ayot. And it appears in all sorts of unexpected places. Very often on a sh'wa. Unfortunately, the page I sent you does not have the last pasuk of T'hilla l'David, or you would
see a ge‘aya on the sh'wa of y'dabber-pi. In the page I sent, you can see one in the preceding kapital, 3 lines before the bottom: miyyad b'ne-nekhar, with a ge‘aya next to the sh'wa.<br>
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<div id="x_x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Danny Levy <danestlev@gmail.com><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Wednesday, December 27, 2017 2:38 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mandel, Seth; mesorah@lists.aishdas.org; Mesorah List<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] mishneh-kesef</font>
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<div dir="ltr">R' Seth,</div>
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<div dir="ltr">In your example</div>
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<div dir="ltr">עֵינֵי-כֹל אֵלֶיךָ יְשַׂבֵּרוּ, וְאַתָּה נוֹתֵן-לָהֶם אֶת-אָכְלָם בְּעִתּוֹ.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">the g'aya on EInei-CHOL is understandable as a sort of Nasog Achor, but why is it NOtein-laHEM rather than noTEIN-laHEM? Not only do the words not have adjacent stressed syllables, but long closed syllables such as TEIN almost invariably have
a ta'am or at least a g'aya.</div>
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<div dir="ltr">There was a similar strange g'aya on words joined by a maqaf in last week's parsha: vinYAmin-aKHIV (Gen 45:14) rather than vinyaMIN-aKHIV (although MIN is not a long closed syllable).</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Might the explanation be that when two words are joined by a maqaf, the first one loses its stress as you wrote, and then it is able to receive a g'aya if the new large word has a suitable syllable (in these cases a g'aya qala on the open syllable)
even if the result is totally foreign to the word when not joined by a maqaf?</div>
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<div dir="ltr">Danny Levy</div>
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<div dir="ltr">2017-12-27 0:43 GMT+02:00 Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <span dir="ltr">
<<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" target="_blank">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>></span>:</div>
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<p style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">It still seems to me that the Rambam's description of what Chazal mean is the most authenic, and it is certainly the oldest.</p>
<p style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">As all the nos'ei kelim noted, the Ra'avd's comment on the Rambam, although equally old, can teach us nothing. The Ra'avad made his comment on the background of his pronunciation. Although it is easy for a linguist
to see what the Ra'avad's pronunciation of Hebrew must have been like, it is nothing like any of the pronunciations we have today.<br>
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Voice (212) 613-8330 Fax (212) 613-0718 e-mail <a href="mailto:mandels@ou.org" target="_blank">
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<div id="x_x_x_m_6096016723564123999divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> elazar teitz <<a href="mailto:emteitz@gmail.com" target="_blank">emteitz@gmail.com</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 25, 2017 10:24 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mandel, Seth; Micha Berger; <a href="mailto:mesorah@aishdas.org" target="_blank">
mesorah@aishdas.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] mishneh-kesef</font>
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<div>This is what the מנחת שי has to say about בכל-לבבך:</div>
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<div dir="rtl">כשאמרו רז"ל שצריך לחתן ריוח בין הדבקים לא אמרו להפסיק שלא לתת מקף בין שני הלמדין כאשר הוא, שאם יקרא אותו בלי מקף יהיה נקוד בחולם, וזה לא אמרו רז"ל להחליף התנועות אשר נתנו למשה מסיני *) אלא אף על פי שיקראם במקף יתן ריוח והבדל ביניהם שידמה
כי שני למדין קרא (מכלול דף צ"ו וכן כל כיוצא בזה</div>
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<div>The footnote reads:</div>
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<div dir="rtl">עיין בספר הכוזרי מאמר ג סימן ל ובספר מסורת המסורה למדקדק הגדול ר' אלי' בחור וגם מטפחת ספרים להגאון מו"ה יעב"ץ ד"ה א"פ</div>
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<div>EMT</div>
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<div class="x_x_x_m_6096016723564123999x_gmail_quote">On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 11:56 PM, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah
<span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" target="_blank">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a>></span> wrote:<br>
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<p style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">The G'moro seems to be pretty clear when it says "revach bein had'vekim." The Rambam brings it the same way:<br>
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<div align="right"><b>ב,ט</b> כיצד מדקדק,ייזהר שלא ירפה החזק ולא יחזק הרפה ולא יניד הנח ולא יניח הנד. לפיכך צריך ליתן ריוח בין כל שתי אותות הדומות שאחת מהן סוף תיבה והאחרת תחילת תיבה הסמוכה לה, כגון "בכל לבבך" קורא "בכל" ושוהה וחוזר וקורא "לבבך", וכן "ואבדתם
מהרה", "הכנף פתיל". </div>
If you need something between the d'veqim, letters that "stick" together, one cannot pronounce them as one doubled letter.
<p></p>
<p style="margin-top:0px; margin-bottom:0px">But this is a rule special for Q'S, apparently, derived from the requirement of "limmud tam," and so it may not necessarily apply to anything else. The R'DaQ claims that it is not only QS, but anything, and QS was
just a place to be more careful. But the Masorah, in discussing two identical letters one after another in the word, implies that in some cases, one is "gol'lam yachad."<br>
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<font style="font-size:11pt" face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000"><b>From:</b> Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org" target="_blank">micha@aishdas.org</a>><br>
<b>Sent:</b> Monday, December 25, 2017 4:01 PM<br>
<b>To:</b> Mandel, Seth<br>
<b>Cc:</b> Michael Poppers; <a href="mailto:mesorah@aishdas.org" target="_blank">
mesorah@aishdas.org</a><br>
<b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] mishneh-kesef</font>
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<div class="x_x_x_m_6096016723564123999x_m_-959509179204339648PlainText"><span>On Mon, Dec 25, 2017 at 03:44:51PM +0000, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah wrote:<br>
: When words are connected with a maqqaf, the first word loses its stress<br>
: and its vowel may b changed, because it is now considered part of a<br>
: larger word. In some cases, there is a secondary stress on the first word;<br>
: in others there is not.<br>
<br>
Tangent, but very much halakhah lemaaseh:<br>
<br>
And in Shema, how many /l/ sounds do you make in "al-levavekha"?<br>
Do you say both lameds with a pause mid-teivah (I prefer that to<br>
modifying the meaning of the word "word"), or pronounce it like<br>
a lamed-degushah?<br>
<br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
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