<html><div>He is <g></div><div> </div><div> </div><div>Gershon<br>gershon.dubin@juno.com<br><br>---------- Original Message ----------<br>From: sholom <sholom@aishdas.org><br>To: <mesorah@lists.aishdas.org><br>Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?<br>Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2014 14:26:50 -0400<br><br></p><!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Transitional//EN"><p>Unsure if RGD is exaggerating or not, but, as another data point, I got exactly 8 of them. (So far)</p><p>On 2014-04-08 14:22, Gershon Dubin wrote:</p><blockquote style="padding-left: 5px; border-left: #1010ff 2px solid; margin-left: 5px; width: 100%;"><!-- html ignored --><!-- head ignored --><!-- meta ignored --><div>Ignoring them? I got 20 copies of this one!<br><br>Gershon<br>gershon.dubin@juno.com<br><br>---------- Original Message ----------<br>From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org><br>To: mesorah@aishdas.org<br>Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?<br>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 14:21:25 -0400<br><br>It's taking me a while to figure out why the list server is ignoring<br>RSM's posts. So, in the meantime, here is one from this morning.<br><br>-micha<br><br>----- Forwarded message from "Mandel, Seth" <mandels@ou.org> -----<br>Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2014 12:08:42 +0000<br>From: "Mandel, Seth" <mandels@ou.org><br>Subject: RE: [Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?<br>To: mesorah@aishdas.org<br>CC: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org><br><br>Which is the larger issue that I was trying (unsuccessfully) to allude<br>to. Trop serves several functions, primarily parsing and cantillation.<br>Since everything requires trop, sometimes trop is not used to parse/divide<br>matters. Such as in most lists.<br><br>People have an unfortunate tendency to want black and white ideas, black<br>and white clothes, and black and white cookies. I have been saying for<br>years something I learned from RYBS but only realized how all-encompassing<br>it was years later: in applying Torah to the human world, usually nothing<br>is black and white, but shades of grey. It requires someone of real<br>stature, something most of us, including rabbis, cannot reach, to analyze<br>through the nuances and decide what is the best way, understanding that<br>in most cases there is no perfect solution. Since the rules of Hebrew,<br>including trop, are part of Torah, how could anyone think that they do<br>not follow the scheme of how the Torah operates?<br><br>The corollary here is that one may NOT say that in any given pasuq<br>the trop is DEFINITELY parsing or cantillation. However, if one first<br>takes the pasuq and creates a trop based on his understanding, and then<br>compares it to the actual trop, it is easier to see in which cases the<br>trop is pointing to a different parsing that one originally thought.<br><br>There is no question that the trop many times through its parsing points<br>to a different meaning than a reading in plain Hebrew would imply. All I<br>was trying to point out was that there is another function of trop that<br>does not indicate parsing by meaning.<br><br>One particularly egregious example, IMHO, is the normal use of trop<br>in lists. Since this non-parsing feature in lists is so common, I<br>called it the nonHeisenberg Uncertainty Priciple, trying to utilize the<br>physics-based terms, just as Micha did, in an apparently unsuccessful<br>attempt at levity.<br><br>Seth Mandel<br><br>-----Original Message-----<br>From: Micha Berger [mailto:micha@aishdas.org] <br>Sent: Monday, April 07, 2014 9:55 PM<br><br>On Sun, Apr 06, 2014 at 08:51:30PM +0000, Mandel, Seth wrote:<br>: To wit: the whole system of trop is built on divisions, and<br>: subdivisions. The classification of trop into Keisarim, M'lakhim,<br>: Sh'niym, and Shalishim, or whichever names you prefer (since none<br>: of these terms exist in the early sources), is quite useful for most<br>: p'suqim and clauses. But it fails when used for a list. Unless a list<br>: has subcategories, the trop used for the words is arbitrary in the sense<br>: that it follows rules of assigning trop if the meaning shows no major<br>: and minor elements.<br><br>I think it's simply that trop is after all cantillation. And therefore<br>serves functions other than aiding in the parsing of sentences.<br><br>It's not uncertainty, it's hidden variables. (My apologies to those<br>who don't get the physics reference. Suffice it to say I'm trying to<br>be funny.)<br><br><br>----- End forwarded message -----<br><br>Tir'u baTov!<br>-Micha<br><br>-- <br>Micha Berger Weeds are flowers too<br>micha@aishdas.org once you get to know them.<br>http://www.aishdas.org - Eeyore ("Winnie-the-Pooh" by AA Milne)<br>Fax: (270) 514-1507<br>_______________________________________________<br>Mesorah mailing list<br>Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org<br>http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org</div><!-- html ignored --><br><br><span style="color: #000000; font-size: small;">____________________________________________________________</span><br><a style="text-decoration: none;" href="http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/53443e93dd97c3e93581fst01vuc"><span style="font-family: Arial;"><span style="color: #004080; font-size: medium;"><strong>The #1 Worst Carb Ever?</strong></span><br><span style="color: #000000; font-size: small;">Click to Learn #1 Carb that Kills Your Blood Sugar (Don't Eat This!)<br></span></span></a><a style="color: #000000;" href="http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/53443e93dd97c3e93581fst01vuc">FixYourBloodSugar.com</a><br><pre>_______________________________________________
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