<div dir="ltr"><div>Indeed there appear to be different girsaos of Onkelos for l'meis in this posuk. An old Mikraos G'dolos I have published by Levin Epstein and the Chumash Ha'amek Dovor both have "al mis" while others I looked at have "l'mis". From the meforshim it would seem that "al mis" (for a dead person) would be more appropriate here.</div>
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<div>Either way, WADR to R' Michael, I don't think that this can be used to prove that the prefixes lo- and l'- have different meanings. Throughout Tanach the lamed prefix is used for both 'to' and 'for'. To claim that they are differentiated in Hebrew is a chiddush that requires considerably more support than a single questionable girsoh in Onkelos.<br>
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<div>Gut Voch,</div>
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<div>Danny<br></div>
<div class="gmail_quote">2010/8/27 Poppers, Michael <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:MPoppers@kayescholer.com">MPoppers@kayescholer.com</a>></span><br>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #1f497d; FONT-SIZE: 11pt">> </span>I am puzzled by your message, R' Michael. Onkelos translates lomeis in 5-14:1 as "al mis", exactly as he does for l'meis in 5-26:14. <</p>
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<p>The Miqraos G’dolos in my office translates “l’meis” as “l’mis,” not “al mis.”</p>
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<p>> <span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black">My knowledge of Aramaic is not great but does that not mean "for a dead person"?</span> <</p></div>
<p>I would go with that as a translation for “al mis,” yes. Quite different from “l’mis.”</p>
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<p>> <span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; COLOR: black">To me it seems that Onkelos supports my answer that both l'meis and lomeis mean the same.</span> <</p></div>
<p>I look forward to a learned discussion of girsaos b’Onqelos <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</span>.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #002060">A gut'n Shabbos/Shabbas Shalom</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="COLOR: #002060">and all the best from</span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Monotype Corsiva'; COLOR: #0070c0; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Michael Poppers</span><span style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Cambria','serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 14pt"> * </span><span style="COLOR: #002060; FONT-SIZE: 14pt">Elizabeth, NJ, USA</span><span style="COLOR: #002060"></span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> Danny Levy [mailto:<a href="mailto:danestlev@gmail.com" target="_blank">danestlev@gmail.com</a>] <br><b>Sent:</b> Friday, August 27, 2010 8:29 AM<br>
<b>To:</b> Poppers, Michael
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<div class="h5"><br><b>Cc:</b> Michael Hamm; <a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" target="_blank">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] another grammar question</div></div></span>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am puzzled by your message, R' Michael. Onkelos translates lomeis in 5-14:1 as "al mis", exactly as he does for l'meis in 5-26:14. My knowledge of Aramaic is not great but does that not mean "for a dead person"? So why do you understand Onkelos to be distinguishing the two? I note that he translates hameis as "miso", for example in 2-21:36 and 5-25:5. To me it seems that Onkelos supports my answer that both l'meis and lomeis mean the same.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I am less certain about my explanation that 'lo-' follows the same rules as 'vo-', as I have not found it it any sefer on grammar. Can anyone else on the Mesorah list help with this one?</p>
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<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class="MsoNormal">Danny</p></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2010/8/26 Poppers, Michael <<a href="mailto:MPoppers@kayescholer.com" target="_blank">MPoppers@kayescholer.com</a>></p>
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<p>WADR, R’Danny, cannot “lawmeis” in 5-14:1 mean something entirely differently than either “lameis” or “l’meis”? Onqelos apparently thought so. Good argument to answer R’Michael’s question the same way I did, but for a different reason <span style="FONT-FAMILY: Wingdings">J</span>. Thanks.</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt">From:</span></b><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"> <a href="mailto:mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org" target="_blank">mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org</a> [mailto:<a href="mailto:mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org" target="_blank">mesorah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org</a>] <b>On Behalf Of </b>Danny Levy<br>
<b>Sent:</b> Thursday, August 26, 2010 3:36 PM<br><b>To:</b> Micha Berger<br><b>Cc:</b> Michael Hamm; <a href="mailto:mesorah@lists.aishdas.org" target="_blank">mesorah@lists.aishdas.org</a> </span></p>
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<p class="MsoNormal"><span style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt"><br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Mesorah] another grammar question</span></p></div></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">It is not poor dikduk - see D'varim 14:1. R' Michael is correct - it is an indefinite article and means the same as l'meis.</p></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">As I understand it, just as vav hachibur can take a kamatz when the word is mil'eil and accented with a ta'am mafsik (see for example B'reshit 8:22), a prefix lamed can do the same, although such forms are rare. Other examples include zeh lozeh and tzav lotzov kav lokov (Yeshaya 28:10).</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">Danny Levy</p></div>
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<p class="MsoNormal">2010/8/26 Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org" target="_blank">micha@aishdas.org</a>></p>
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<p style="MARGIN-BOTTOM: 12pt" class="MsoNormal">On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 02:08:47PM -0500, Michael Hamm wrote:<br>: On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 12:04 PM, Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org" target="_blank">micha@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br>
: > On Thu, Aug 26, 2010 at 10:46:22AM -0500, Michael Hamm wrote:<br>: > : Someone leining Ki Savo said (26:14) "v'lo nasati mimenu lames", with<br>: > : an Ashkenazi kamatz (not a patach) under the lamed of "lames" instead<br>
: > : of the proper sh'va.<br>: <snip><br>: > "Lameis" means "to the deceased", as opposed to the pasuq really talking<br>: > about "to a deceased". No?<br><br>: Does it? With a kamatz?</p>
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<p class="MsoNormal">I think it does, as La- with a qamatz means that elsewhere. The fact that<br>it's poor diqduq to boot... Well, "I throwing the ball" means something,<br>despite the grammatical flaw.<br>
<br>Tir'u baTov!<br>-Micha<br><span style="COLOR: #888888"><br>--<br>Micha Berger Every second is a totally new world,<br><a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org" target="_blank">micha@aishdas.org</a> and no moment is like any other.<br>
<a href="http://www.aishdas.org/" target="_blank">http://www.aishdas.org</a> - Rabbi Chaim Vital<br>Fax: (270) 514-1507</span></p>
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