<html><P> What is the basis for the assumption that "s'gan" is a mispronunciation? Even Shoshan, in his concordance, lists the singular as "s'gan" in his heading. (The word appears in Tanach only in the plural.)</P>
<P>EMT <BR><BR>---------- Original Message ----------<BR>From: גודיק שלמה <Shlomog@iteam.co.il><BR>To: <mesorah@aishdas.org><BR>Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Shitrei or Shtarei Hovoteinu<BR>Date: Mon, 13 Jul 2009 19:17:31 +0200<BR><BR></P>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=556540417-13072009>A colleague of mine at work suggested that the word "p'sak" may be similar to the word "s'gan". That is, just as "segen" is often mispronounced "s'gan" when not in s'michut (not in the army, but just about everywhere else) because it is usually found in the s'michut form, similarly "p'sak" should really be pronounced "pesek" when not in the s'michut form. If so, p'sak din would be "pesek shel din" and therefore in the plural and bismichut: "piskei din". </SPAN></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN class=556540417-13072009>By the way, any ideas why "segen shel k'huna" is pronounced bismichut: "s'gan k'huna"? Contrast "beged shel k'huna" which is pronounced in the smichut: "beged k'huna".</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Simon Montagu [mailto:simon.montagu@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 13, 2009 5:35 PM<BR><B>To:</B> גודיק שלמה<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Mesorah] Shitrei or Shtarei Hovoteinu<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
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<DIV class=gmail_quote>2009/7/13 גודיק שלמה <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:Shlomog@iteam.co.il">Shlomog@iteam.co.il</A>></SPAN><BR>
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<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>A recent broadcast on Israeli radio pointed out that the s'michut of words of binyan "ketel" differs from that of binyan k'tal. The first binyan is of Tanachic provenance, while the second is post-Tanachic and entered Hebrew under the influence of Aramaic. </FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Not post-Tanachic: yekar, ketav, kerav and she'ar are all biblical, and the last is used by Isaiah (She'ar Yashuv) and unlikely to be from Aramaic. See <A href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautzsch-Cowley_edition%29.djvu/256">http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautzsch-Cowley_edition%29.djvu/256</A><SPAN class=556540417-13072009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> <FONT face=David color=#000000 size=3> </FONT> </FONT></SPAN><BR></DIV>
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<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>The first group includes words like "perek", "beged", "perach", and "peleg", and their s'michut in the plural is "pirkei", "bigdei", pirchei", and "palgei".</FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=he><FONT face="Guttman Yad-Brush" size=2><SPAN dir=rtl> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN dir=rtl>The second group contains words like "p'ras", "p'gam", "p'rat", and "k'lal", and their 'smichut forms are "p'rasei", "p'gamei", p'ratei", and "k'lalei" (even though 99% of Israelis wrongly say "pirtei p'ratim" instead of "p'ratei p'ratim").</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN dir=rtl>My question is: at first glance, the words "sh'tar" and "p'sak" also belong to the second group. But in the siddur we find the usage: "shitrei hovoteinu", not "sh'tarei". Also I have never heard anybody say "p'sakei halacha" (as opposed to "piskei z'man" for intermissions). Are these simply examples of misuse of the language? Do S'faradim pronounce them "sh'tarei" and "p'sakei"?.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial><SPAN dir=rtl> </SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> The Spanish and Portuguese in London and New York do say "shetarei hhovoteinu", though all other Sepharadi siddurim that I checked have "shitrei". <BR><BR>On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Ira L. Jacobson <SPAN dir=ltr><<A href="mailto:laser@ieee.org">laser@ieee.org</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR><FONT face=Verdana color=#000080>A prime example is kitvei, which derives from ketav. I don't think any authority finds fault with kitvei haqodesh.<BR><BR></FONT>I remember that R EE Wiesenberg zt"l once asked me what perek of gemara I was learning, and I said "Kol Kitvei Hakodesh". He replied that while that pronounciation was common in yeshivot, he had expected that at Jews' College it would be called "Kol Ketavei Hakodesh".<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P><SPAN dir=ltr style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Times New Roman','serif'; mso-bidi-language: HE">
<P class=MsoNormal dir=rtl style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-layout-grid-align: none"><B><SPAN lang=HE style="COLOR: #999999; FONT-FAMILY: David">המידע הכלול בהודעת דוא"ל זו הנו חסוי וסודי. המידע מיועד לשימושו של הנמען בלבד. אם קורא הודעה זו אינו הנמען, הננו מביאים לידיעתו כי כל הפצה, העברה או העתקה של תכתובת זו אסורה בהחלט. אם תכתובת זו הגיעה אליך בטעות, הנך מתבקש ליידע אותנו בהקדם בדוא"ל, ולמחוק את ההודעה מהמחשב שלך. תודה.</SPAN></B></SPAN></P></O:P></html>
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