<div dir="ltr">2009/7/13 גודיק שלמה <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:Shlomog@iteam.co.il" target="_blank">Shlomog@iteam.co.il</a>></span><div class="im"><br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; padding-right: 1ex;">
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<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial" size="2">A recent
broadcast on Israeli radio pointed out that the s'michut of words of
binyan "ketel" differs from that of binyan k'tal. The first binyan is of
Tanachic provenance, while the second is post-Tanachic and entered
Hebrew under the influence of Aramaic. </font></span></p>
</div></blockquote></div><div>Not post-Tanachic: yekar, ketav, kerav
and she'ar are all biblical, and the last is used by Isaiah (She'ar
Yashuv) and unlikely to be from Aramaic. See <a href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautzsch-Cowley_edition%29.djvu/256" target="_blank">http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautzsch-Cowley_edition%29.djvu/256</a><br>
</div><div class="im"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); border-right: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex; padding-right: 1ex;"><div><p dir="LTR">
<span lang="en-us"></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial" size="2">The first
group includes words like "perek", "beged", "perach", and "peleg", and
their s'michut in the plural is "pirkei", "bigdei", pirchei", and
"palgei".</font></span><span lang="he"><font face="Guttman Yad-Brush" size="2"><span dir="RTL"> </span></font></span><span lang="en-us"> <font face="Arial" size="2"><span dir="RTL">The second group contains words
like "p'ras", "p'gam", "p'rat", and "k'lal", and their 'smichut forms
are "p'rasei", "p'gamei", p'ratei", and "k'lalei" (even though 99% of
Israelis wrongly say "pirtei p'ratim" instead of "p'ratei p'ratim").</span></font></span></p>
<p dir="LTR"><span lang="en-us"><font face="Arial" size="2"><span dir="RTL">My question is: at first glance, the words "sh'tar" and
"p'sak" also belong to the second group. But in the siddur we find the
usage: "shitrei hovoteinu", not "sh'tarei". Also I have never heard
anybody say "p'sakei halacha" (as opposed to "piskei z'man" for
intermissions). Are these simply examples of misuse of the language?
Do S'faradim pronounce them "sh'tarei" and "p'sakei"?.</span></font><font face="Arial"><span dir="RTL"> </span></font></span></p>
</div></blockquote></div> The Spanish and Portuguese in London and
New York do say "shetarei hhovoteinu", though all other Sepharadi
siddurim that I checked have "shitrei". <br><div class="im"><br>On Mon,
Jul 13, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Ira L. Jacobson <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:laser@ieee.org" target="_blank">laser@ieee.org</a>></span>
wrote:<br>
<font color="#000080" face="Verdana">A prime example is kitvei, which
derives from ketav. I don't think any authority finds fault with
kitvei haqodesh.<br><br></font></div>I remember that R EE Wiesenberg
zt"l once asked me what perek of gemara I was learning, and I said "Kol
Kitvei Hakodesh". He replied that while that pronounciation was common
in yeshivot, he had expected that at Jews' College it would be called
"Kol Ketavei Hakodesh".</div>