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<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=556540417-13072009>A colleague of mine at work suggested that the word
"p'sak" may be similar to the word "s'gan". That is, just as "segen" is
often mispronounced "s'gan" when not in s'michut (not in the army, but
just about everywhere else) because it is usually found in the s'michut
form, similarly "p'sak" should really be pronounced "pesek" when not in the
s'michut form. If so, p'sak din would be "pesek shel din" and
therefore in the plural and bismichut: "piskei din".
</SPAN></FONT></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=556540417-13072009></SPAN></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr align=left><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2><SPAN
class=556540417-13072009>By the way, any ideas why "segen shel k'huna" is
pronounced bismichut: "s'gan k'huna"? Contrast "beged shel k'huna"
which is pronounced in the smichut: "beged
k'huna".</SPAN></FONT></DIV><BR>
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<FONT face=Tahoma size=2><B>From:</B> Simon Montagu
[mailto:simon.montagu@gmail.com] <BR><B>Sent:</B> Monday, July 13, 2009 5:35
PM<BR><B>To:</B> גודיק שלמה<BR><B>Subject:</B> Re: [Mesorah] Shitrei or Shtarei
Hovoteinu<BR></FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV class=gmail_quote>2009/7/13 גודיק שלמה <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:Shlomog@iteam.co.il">Shlomog@iteam.co.il</A>></SPAN><BR>
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<P dir=rtl></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>A recent broadcast on
Israeli radio pointed out that the s'michut of words of binyan "ketel" differs
from that of binyan k'tal. The first binyan is of Tanachic provenance, while
the second is post-Tanachic and entered Hebrew under the influence of
Aramaic. </FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>Not post-Tanachic: yekar, ketav, kerav and she'ar are all biblical,
and the last is used by Isaiah (She'ar Yashuv) and unlikely to be from Aramaic.
See <A
href="http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautzsch-Cowley_edition%29.djvu/256">http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Page:Gesenius%27_Hebrew_Grammar_%281910_Kautzsch-Cowley_edition%29.djvu/256</A><SPAN
class=556540417-13072009><FONT face=Arial color=#0000ff size=2> <FONT
face=David color=#000000 size=3> </FONT> </FONT></SPAN><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2>The first group includes
words like "perek", "beged", "perach", and "peleg", and their s'michut in the
plural is "pirkei", "bigdei", pirchei", and "palgei".</FONT></SPAN><SPAN
lang=he><FONT face="Guttman Yad-Brush" size=2><SPAN dir=rtl>
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN
dir=rtl>The second group contains words like "p'ras", "p'gam", "p'rat",
and "k'lal", and their 'smichut forms are "p'rasei", "p'gamei", p'ratei", and
"k'lalei" (even though 99% of Israelis wrongly say "pirtei p'ratim"
instead of "p'ratei p'ratim").</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P>
<P dir=ltr><SPAN lang=en-us><FONT face=Arial size=2><SPAN dir=rtl>My question
is: at first glance, the words "sh'tar" and "p'sak" also belong to the second
group. But in the siddur we find the usage: "shitrei hovoteinu", not
"sh'tarei". Also I have never heard anybody say "p'sakei halacha"
(as opposed to "piskei z'man" for intermissions). Are these simply
examples of misuse of the language? Do S'faradim pronounce them
"sh'tarei" and "p'sakei"?.</SPAN></FONT><FONT face=Arial><SPAN dir=rtl>
</SPAN></FONT></SPAN></P></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV> The Spanish and Portuguese in London and New York do say "shetarei
hhovoteinu", though all other Sepharadi siddurim that I checked have "shitrei".
<BR><BR>On Mon, Jul 13, 2009 at 7:53 AM, Ira L. Jacobson <SPAN dir=ltr><<A
href="mailto:laser@ieee.org">laser@ieee.org</A>></SPAN> wrote:<BR><FONT
face=Verdana color=#000080>A prime example is kitvei, which derives from
ketav. I don't think any authority finds fault with kitvei
haqodesh.<BR><BR></FONT>I remember that R EE Wiesenberg zt"l once asked me what
perek of gemara I was learning, and I said "Kol Kitvei Hakodesh". He replied
that while that pronounciation was common in yeshivot, he had expected that at
Jews' College it would be called "Kol Ketavei
Hakodesh".<BR></DIV></DIV></DIV>
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style="COLOR: #999999; FONT-FAMILY: David">המידע הכלול בהודעת דוא"ל זו הנו חסוי
וסודי. המידע מיועד לשימושו של הנמען בלבד. אם קורא הודעה זו אינו הנמען, הננו
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