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Far be it from me to take issue with my elder and superior. But two half cents worth:<br>1) if one counts vocalized mss. of siddurim and payet as sources, then there are quite a few.<br>2) The Teimanim, especially the Baladi, who share R. DB view of changing things based on mystical sources, have always said (at least according the mss. that I have seen) haggeshem but hattol (with a qomatz). They also have a qomatz in similar words, like z'mon and 'om. I think that their tradition of L'shon HaZaL held that even words with doubling in the last consonant have a qomatz in the singular.<br>OK, perhaps only a quarter pence worth.<br>Seth <br><br>> From: dbnet@zahav.net.il<br>> To: rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com<br>> Date: Wed, 19 Sep 2007 17:11:36 +0200<br>> CC: mesorah@aishdas.org<br>> Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Fwd: Lashon Tanach vs. Lashon Hazal<br>> <br>> Re" <<wondering how pausals became so ubiquitous in <br>> Siddurim/Machzormi/haggados at such a late date...It is hard <br>> for me to believe that if the non-pausals were the <br>> exclusive way of davening until the 17th century that they <br>> were altered w/o great opposition so thoroughly & so <br>> quickly. By late 18th Century can you find any <br>> haggados/Siddurim w/o Pausals in any Ashkenazic - East or <br>> West? >><br>> <br>> Sorry for the delay in reply. Busy with other things.<br>> <br>> We cannot be sure of whether there were more or less pausals <br>> in use in "ancient" times because we are limited to written <br>> sources with nikkud and there aren't that many.<br>> <br>> Roedelheim press was famous for its diyyuk. Seligmann Baer <br>> too. They accepted the changes of RZ"H and RY"S as <br>> improvements in the texts and, the influence of their books <br>> spread beyond Western Ashkenaz. The siddurim of R' <br>> Shabbetai and of R' Eliyahu ben R' 'Azriel were considered <br>> the best and they made many corrections that spread. With R' <br>> Shabbetai and R' Eliyahu began the era of correcting errors <br>> by examining old sources. By the time of RZ"H and RY"S it <br>> developed to inventing improvements. The earlier work was <br>> accepted without much problem. The later development <br>> aroused some opposition but its acceptance by RVH and SB <br>> aided and abetted the textual "improvement" or "reform".<br>> <br>> It is only in the last 25-40 years that there have been <br>> attempts to return to older forms. Siddur Hagr"a Eizor <br>> Eliyahu was the result of examining a large number of older <br>> siddurim in addition to the writings of the Gr'a to find the <br>> "original" nusach or pronunciation. Rinat Yisrael and <br>> others have changed hagashem back to hageshem - despite RMF <br>> in IM that as it is a hefsek it should be hagashem. Is it a <br>> hefsek? It is preceded and followed by others in a long list <br>> of different attributes of HKBH. The only hefsek is that <br>> the printers separated it because it is said only part of <br>> the year. BTW, those who corrected back to hageshem do not <br>> usually correct back to hatal with patach instead of the <br>> pausal kamatz. Some give mystical reasons for that kamatz. <br>> No, I don't remember the details. Although neither Litvak <br>> nor Yekke, I am not one who goes for mystics.<br>> <br>> All we can do is look at the evidence of the written <br>> nikkuded sources available to us. It is natural to then <br>> assume that these are the facts and therefore correct.<br>> <br>> <br>> gh"t,<br>> <br>> David <br>> <br>> _______________________________________________<br>> Mesorah mailing list<br>> Mesorah@lists.aishdas.org<br>> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org<br><br /><hr />Kick back and relax with hot games and cool activities at the Messenger Café. <a href='http://www.cafemessenger.com?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_SeptWLtagline' target='_new'>Play now!</a></body>
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