[Mesorah] Yehei shemeih rabb

Fri Sep 13 11:53:32 PDT 2019

Yes, I can understand that many lost the ability vis-a-vis Aramaic beyond
Gemara . . .

But, how much of a boki does one need to be to see a connection between
Doniel 2:20 and "yehei shemei..." from kaddish?

On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 2:40 PM Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org> wrote:

> Rashi, ibn Ezra, yes.  Most other Ashkenaz rabbonim knew Doniel and its
> language the same way they knew G'moro.  They learned it with a perush, but
> if you asked them to write a sentence in Aramaic, or given them an Aramaic
> inscription, they would not have been able to do it.
> No different that rabbis of today, some of whom are "boki in Shas." Give
> them any G'rmor, they will tell you what it means.  Ask them to write a
> sentence in  Hebrew, they will do it without a problem.  Ask them to write
> a sentence in Aramaic, they will not be able to.  Give them something in
> Aramaic not in Sha's, they will struggle with it and may or may not be able
> to make any sense out of it.
> Go ahead, try it on most any rabbi that you know.
> I do not mean that in practice; you are not allowed to embarrass people.
> But if you talk with them, most will tell you.  And if you give them
> quotations from Doniel, many will struggle with them, even though they
> learned it with Rashi Once Upon a Time.
> I mean no disrespect.  I mean that no one is taught basic Aramaic, even of
> the Targum, and no one has been taught it for hundreds of years. In Brisk
> they forced you to learn Doniel and  Ezra and Nehemiah, but I strongly
> doubt if many could write a sentence in Aramaic.
> There doubtless were some exceptions.
>
> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
> Rabbinic Coordinator
> The Orthodox Union
>
> Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330        e-mail mandels at ou.org
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Sholom Simon <sholom at aishdas.org>
> *Sent:* Friday, September 13, 2019 2:14 PM
> *To:* Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org>; Mesorah AishDas List <
> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Mesorah] Yehei shemeih rabb
>
> Naive question here . . . what do you mean by: "most Ashkenazi rabbonim
> did not know Doniel in the Aramaic".  The Rishonim were mefeirush on that
> sefer (as one can see in a Mikraos G'dolos -- Rashi, ibn Ezra, etc).  The
> achronim certainly must have been aware of this, no?
>
> On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 11:17 AM Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <
> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> BTW, the nusakh of the Qaddish is probably based on Doniel 2:20: "may the
> name of God be blessed for ever and ever."
> As noted, most Ashkenazi rabbonim did not know Doniel in the Aramaic, and
> so this posuq, which should have been mentioned by everyone, is missing in
> the sources most people see.
>
> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
> Rabbinic Coordinator
> The Orthodox Union
>
> Voice and Fax (212) 613-8330        e-mail mandels at ou.org
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* Mesorah <mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org> on behalf of Mandel,
> Seth via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 11, 2019 12:31 PM
> *To:* Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org>; mesorah at aishdas.org <
> mesorah at aishdas.org>
> *Subject:* Re: [Mesorah] Yehei shemeih rabb
>
> All people view the world through the things they have been taught.
> Most rabbis were not linguists and their comments reflect their
> understanding of things. Without understanding linguistics, rabbis got the
> idea that they could kav’yokhol “pasen” questions in grammar.  It is not
> the AhS’s fault: rabbis have been doing it for several hundred years.
> To “pasken” that one uses a form in a specific nusakh rests on a
> misconception. It requires intensive research into the origins of nuskh’os.
> That required spending months or longer in libraries with old mss., most of
> which were far from the centers of Jewish population centers. The Vilner
> Gaon at least made the effort.
> But the Vilner Gaon’s decisión that one should use a tzere in the first
> two words of qaddish was not based on any old mss. There are none that had
> a tzere. It was bSed partially on the Qabbolo of the Ari which attributed
> various mystical meanings for many vowels and partially on the fact that
> the T’NaKh did NOT  use the normal vowels in v’hitgaddilti v’hitqaddishti.
> That was his decision, but no old mss. supoported it (the first use of such
> vowels was by the Ari, which is not what is called an “old mss.”
> The AhS based himself on the Gaon; there was no other source.
> Sh’mey rabbo means “the Heavens if the Great One.” Although it has a
> meaning, it is clearly not te original meaning, which has Hebrew parallels
> from the time of Chazal “May  His Great Name be exalted.”  Again, all old
> mss. have a mappiq. The AhS was led astray by his own theories about
> qaddish should mean.
> He is not the first nor the last rabbi who thinks they should change a
> nussakh based on their own theories.
>
>
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> On September 10, 2019 at 9:52:25 PM EDT, Micha Berger via Mesorah <
> mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> The AhS makes three grammatical comments about Qaddish:
>
> 1- Yigadeil veyisqadeish – with tzeirei
>
> 2- The Rama puts the comma after “yehei shemeih rabba mevorakh”
>
> 3- Shemeih does not get a mapiq hei
>
>
>
> I don’t understanding #3.
>
>
>
> *Tir'u baTov!*
>
> *-Micha*
>
>
>
> --
>
> Micha Berger
>
> micha at aishdas.org
>
> Author: Widen Your Tent
>
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