[Mesorah] sh'wa and qomatz in Aramaic (was: Chad Gadya)
Michael R. Stein
m-stein at northwestern.edu
Thu Apr 11 09:49:43 PDT 2019
Can someone (R' Seth?) provide references to R' Mazuz's writings on this
subject for those of us who would like to read further?
A very long time ago, I took a course on Babylonian Aramaic with Prof.
Shlomo Morag at Hebrew U. I recall a student asking about the
pronunciation of qamatz qatan in Aramaic and his reply "what makes you
think there is such a thing in Aramaic?" (Given the time lapse, I claim
only 70% accuracy for this recollection).
Mike Stein
On 4/10/2019 12:48, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah wrote:
> Therefore is not correct. ‘olmo in Aramaic have a qomatz in both places,
> from the time of the book of Daniel at least. At that time the R'DaQ
> had not been born.
>
> Aramaic had qomatz and patach. How you pronounce them is your business,
> but they were different Aramaic vowels. Neither one was more godol than
> the other; two different Aramaic vowels.
>
> The R'DaQ invented theories about the qamatz gadol, qatan, for Hebrew.
> The evidence from the Masorah is that he was incorrect in his theories.
> But assuming he was correct, he spoke about Hebrew grammar, not about
> Aramaic.
>
> So: was the sh'wa in Aramaic ‘ol'mo pronounced or not there at all?
>
> The answer to the question phrased that way is the same answer to the
> question posed by the famous poem Antigonish, :
>
> /Yesterday upon the stair/
> /I met a man who wasn’t there/
> /He wasn’t there again today/
>
> If you claim it is a vowel, then it is there. But is really there? Is
> it really a vowel? In the Babylonian punctuation, including of Sefer
> Doniel, there is nothing there. In Tiberinan punctuation, the lack of
> anything indicates that the consonant is not pronounced, so they wrote a
> sh'wa. Was it every pronounced? Very doubtful.
>
> R. Mazuz, if you are looking for a current day rov who understood the
> issues, claims that the rules of the R'DaQ for Hebrew sh'wa and qomatz
> do not apply at all in Aramaic, and so it is not pronounced.....
>
> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
>
> {Dedicated to R. David Bannett}
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Danny Levy <danestlev at gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 10, 2019 1:27 PM
> *To:* Mandel, Seth
> *Cc:* mesorah at aishdas.org; avodah at aishdas.org
> *Subject:* Re: [Mesorah] Fwd: [Avodah] Chad Gadya
> May I take this opportunity to ask another question about Aramaic
> dikduk? In Kaddish, ul'olmei olmaya and da'amiran b'olma, do they have
> kamatz gadol and therefore shva na, or kamatz katan and therefore shva
> nach, or is Aramaic dikduk different from Hebrew and therefore
> "therefore" is incorrect?
>
> Danny Levy
>
> בתאריך יום ד׳, 10 באפר׳ 2019 ב-16:02 מאת Mandel, Seth via Mesorah
> <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>>:
>
> The rules in Aramaic are the same, although the form of the numerals
> are different. To be consistent, one should be saying t'loth ‘asre
> middayya and tarte ‘esre kokhvayya.
>
> But the question is incorrect in two points:
>
> 1) middayya and kokhvayya and dibbrayya are all MASCULINE in
> Aramaic. The singular is, like with all Aramaic masculine nouns, has
> the definite form midda, kokhva, dibb'ra; the final -a is the
> definite article.
>
> Even in Hebrew, the old singular of dibb'rot is NOT dibb'rah, but
> dibber. That word is masculine, but with the -ot plural, which is
> quite common in Hebrew for masculine nouns. Maqom-m'qomot.
>
> Even when the word has an -ot ending in Hebrew, the Aramiac often
> has the -ayya (maculine) plural. In Hebrew we have a hag called
> Shavu‘ot. In Aramaic, it is Shavu‘ayya, not *shavu‘ata.
>
> 2) The questioner should have first asked why are we counting some
> things in Aramaic and some in Hebrew? Why not 'arba immahata and
> t'lata avahata?
>
> The answer is that all the songs after the Haggodo were medieval
> compositions, most originally in German. Old haggodos still have
> "nun boy," even if they have the Hebrew "Qel b'neh." To make it
> sound more authentic, the songs were rewritten in a mixture of
> Hebrew and Aramaic, but the knowledge of Aramaic in medieval
> Ashk'naz was near nill. They had long ago abandoned reading the
> Targum on Shabbos in shul, and all of the medieval compositions from
> Ashk'naz in Aramaic have basic, sometimes toxic errors. No one even
> really knew the Aramaic parts of Daniyyel and Ezra. The song "Qoh
> Ribbon" is mostly based on Daniyyel, but punctuated in the siddur
> with incorrect signs: hayvat boro means "the animals of the wild,"
> and that is the way it is in Daniyyel. But people sing "hevat
> b'ra," which means "the animals of the Son."
>
> Chad gaya is sung "di-zabbenn abba," which would meant "that father
> sold," rather than di-z'van," which means "bought."
>
> Why did they bother using Aramaic at all, if they didn't know
> Aramaic? Probably because it sounded more "authentic." Just like
> nowadays, Jews studied G'moro. Whether or not they understood
> Aramaic. Most or all of the children did not, but they learned
> G'moro like they had learned Chumash: most or all did not know
> Hebrew, but the rebbe would have them read a couple of words,
> translate them, and had the kids learn the translation with the
> Hebrew. When they started reading G'moro, they already knew a lot
> of Hebrew, and so understood the G'moro based on Rashi.
>
>
> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
> Rabbinic Coordinator
> The Orthodox Union
>
> Voice (212) 613-8330 Fax (212) 613-0718 e-mail
> mandels at ou.org <mailto:mandels at ou.org>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> *From:* Mesorah <mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org
> <mailto:mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org>> on behalf of Micha
> Berger via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
> <mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>>
> *Sent:* Wednesday, April 10, 2019 2:32 AM
> *To:* mesorah at aishdas.org <mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>
> *Cc:* Micha Berger
> *Subject:* [Mesorah] Fwd: [Avodah] Chad Gadya
> Someone here is more likely to know the answer.
>
> -micha
>
> ----- Forwarded message from Aryeh Frimer via Avodah
> <avodah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:avodah at lists.aishdas.org>> -----
> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2019 10:38:43 +0000
> From: Aryeh Frimer via Avodah <avodah at lists.aishdas.org
> <mailto:avodah at lists.aishdas.org>>
> Subject: [Avodah] Chad Gadya
> To: <avodah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:avodah at lists.aishdas.org>>
> CC: Aryeh Frimer <Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il
> <mailto:Aryeh.Frimer at biu.ac.il>>
> Reply-To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
> <avodah at lists.aishdas.org <mailto:avodah at lists.aishdas.org>>
>
> In Chad Gadya, we say Shelosha Avot and Arba (not Arba'a) Imahot because
> Avot is male and Imahot is female. Yet the text reads Asara Dibraya and
> shlosha Asar Midaya even though Dibra/Dibrot and Mida/Midot are female.
> Has any one seen a discussion related to this Dikduk Problem? Are the
> rules in Aramaic different?
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