[Mesorah] Mesorah Digest, Vol 109, Issue 3

Wed Jun 6 08:01:55 PDT 2018

My question is clearly not etymological.  It is rather when a phrase acquired a specific meaning.

As I have said, my question is when this term began to be used for mysticism or pseudo-mysticism.  I do not recall anyone who engaged in real qabbolo using the term.  And my specific question was that I saw Chasidic works claiming that people learning qabbolo/nistar were learning "p'nimiyus haTorah."

Seth Mandel

________________________________
From: Mesorah <mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org> on behalf of Ephraim Rothstein via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 10:38 AM
To: mesorah at lists.aishdas.org
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Mesorah Digest, Vol 109, Issue 3

Your most recent response makes me think that your question is more philosophical than etymological. If so, I'm curious what led you to the conclusion that this phraseology is anything other than a more contemporary way of referring to the classic distinctions between nigleh and nistar, in which case this phrase would simply be another in a long line of terms used to refer to those parts of the Torah that go beyond p'shat (e.g. nistar, kabalah, sod, chochmas ha'emes, etc.) Anecdotally, its usage strikes me as more colloquial than other terms, much in the same way that the Maharal's system of thought is commonly referred to as "machshava." But philosophically, I hadn't thought of this distinction as markedly different from the kinds of distinctions one finds in earlier sources (e.g. Ramban's "al derech ha'p'shat" vs "al derech ha'emes")

On Wed, Jun 6, 2018 at 9:18 AM, <mesorah-request at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah-request at lists.aishdas.org>> wrote:
Send Mesorah mailing list submissions to
        mesorah at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
        http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.aishdas.org_listinfo.cgi_mesorah-2Daishdas.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=VTwaeXjOsAHot2hQQ0nozrBJwyviuCtydNuGwYGfYiI&r=e6XbAQdGwcl_5FMtQ-t1eA&m=NyUZlsZhFIVg-yOwFs3bcnmWF7umHyiPsdKoIeGRqV4&s=YjLoB4SoOvRNPL8MDaAUPqoRHzn2vaIUf7EpU-Zpzao&e=>
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
        mesorah-request at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah-request at lists.aishdas.org>

You can reach the person managing the list at
        mesorah-owner at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah-owner at lists.aishdas.org>

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Mesorah digest..."

Today's Topics:

   1. Re: "P'nimiyus" (Mandel, Seth)
   2. Re: Another term (Mandel, Seth)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 12:48:45 +0000
From: "Mandel, Seth" <mandels at ou.org<mailto:mandels at ou.org>>
To: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org<mailto:micha at aishdas.org>>, "mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>"
        <mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] "P'nimiyus"
Message-ID:
        <BLUPR0601MB1588E0D096A1557948BBE4EFC8650 at BLUPR0601MB1588.namprd06.prod.outlook.com<mailto:BLUPR0601MB1588E0D096A1557948BBE4EFC8650 at BLUPR0601MB1588.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="windows-1252"

so Ohr haChaim is possibly the source for the chasidic usage, since he was very much used by them.  As was the alSheikh.

The Malbim is after the advent of Chasidus.

The AlSheikh is the earliest, and he was a talmid of the M'habber and one of the rebbis of R. Chaim Vital.  But he was not a talmid of the Ari, and although he lived at the time, his works do not use qabbolo much except for references to the Zohar.  In one of his letters, he discusses his education and never mentions qabbolo.

Which leads me back to my original question: despite the claims made, I do not remember either the Ari nor the Vilner Gaon using the term when they refer to qabbolo.

I am not quibbling (although curmudgeons such as I do that all the time).  I am trying to discover the origin of the notion that "p'nimiyus haTorah" is taken as separate method/\area of study vs. "chitzoniyus haTorah," which is the way it seems to be used nowadays.  That is a major change from just referring to ideas that are indicated but not mentioned explicitly.  The latter is more akin to the idea of "Da'as Torah" advanced nowadays, which means that it is implicit but not explicit, but is not considered (yet?) a separate area for study.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel

________________________________
From: Micha Berger <micha at aishdas.org<mailto:micha at aishdas.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 6:41 AM
To: Mandel, Seth; mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>
Subject: RE: [Mesorah] "P'nimiyus"

The Or haChaim uses the term: Shemos 22:14, Vayiqra 18:4, Bamidbar 23:22.

The Alshich uses ?penimiyus haTorah? 5 times. (E.g. Devarim 5, ?vayitneim eilay?.

All in all, Bar Ilan has 122 hits. I see the Malbim is on the list: Bereishis 3:21, Shemos 22:20.

Tir'u baTov!

-Micha

--

Micha Berger             The waste of time is the most extravagant

micha at aishdas.org<mailto:micha at aishdas.org>        of all expense.

http://www.aishdas.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.aishdas.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=VTwaeXjOsAHot2hQQ0nozrBJwyviuCtydNuGwYGfYiI&r=e6XbAQdGwcl_5FMtQ-t1eA&m=NyUZlsZhFIVg-yOwFs3bcnmWF7umHyiPsdKoIeGRqV4&s=--ZtkTCMcwhByib9ff3c1pg76r1pTcgCkmR7ioPVxbY&e=>                           -Theophrastus

Fax: (270) 514-1507

From: Mesorah <mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org>> On Behalf Of Mandel, Seth via Mesorah
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 3:41 PM
To: mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>
Subject: [Mesorah] "P'nimiyus"

You know me by now with my interest in words and terms. Sometimes the origins of words and term can tell us a lot.

Chasidic writers talk a lot about "pnimiyus haTorah." Since we all know what the word means, I never paid attention.  But recently I saw someone who claimed that the Ari and the Vilner Gaon talk about p'nimiyus haTorah, which made me pause.  AFAIK, both of those source talk a about the qabbolo and the sodos of qabbolo, but I do not recall either using the term "pnimiyus haTorah."

I may be wrong,

Does anyone know a use of the term "pnimiyus haTorah" before Chasidus started?

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/mesorah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180606/14f2ce11/attachment-0001.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.aishdas.org_pipermail_mesorah-2Daishdas.org_attachments_20180606_14f2ce11_attachment-2D0001.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=VTwaeXjOsAHot2hQQ0nozrBJwyviuCtydNuGwYGfYiI&r=e6XbAQdGwcl_5FMtQ-t1eA&m=NyUZlsZhFIVg-yOwFs3bcnmWF7umHyiPsdKoIeGRqV4&s=LhPMkIXgU-0sh2E5usuBBCxdYQ5OU7qhdic_B90w-1A&e=>>

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Wed, 6 Jun 2018 13:18:08 +0000
From: "Mandel, Seth" <mandels at ou.org<mailto:mandels at ou.org>>
To: "Yitzchak M. Gottlieb" <zukigottlieb at gmail.com<mailto:zukigottlieb at gmail.com>>,
        "mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>" <mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>>, "Mandel, Seth"
        <mandels at ou.org<mailto:mandels at ou.org>>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Another term
Message-ID:
        <BLUPR0601MB1588DE49EC4AC50CA632BB3FC8650 at BLUPR0601MB1588.namprd06.prod.outlook.com<mailto:BLUPR0601MB1588DE49EC4AC50CA632BB3FC8650 at BLUPR0601MB1588.namprd06.prod.outlook.com>>

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="cp1255"

I meant "in the first person plural, referring to "our chevra..."

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
Rabbinic Coordinator
The Orthodox Union

Voice (212) 613-8330     Fax (212) 613-0718     e-mail mandels at ou.org<mailto:mandels at ou.org>

________________________________
From: Mesorah <mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah-bounces at lists.aishdas.org>> on behalf of Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>>
Sent: Wednesday, June 6, 2018 8:32 AM
To: Yitzchak M. Gottlieb; mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Another term

very true.

I was referring to the term in the second person meaning "our chevra" as opposed to other groups.  I believe that that is a neologism coined by the Ba'al haTanya.

Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel

________________________________
From: Yitzchak M. Gottlieb <zukigottlieb at gmail.com<mailto:zukigottlieb at gmail.com>>
Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2018 7:31 PM
To: mesorah at aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at aishdas.org>
Cc: Mandel, Seth
Subject: Re: [Mesorah] Another term

On Jun 5, 2018, at 15:49, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>> wrote:

> Another term that does not go back a long time is "??'?/???? ??????".  I have seen the term first used by the Alter Rebbe of Chabad in some of his letters.  If anyone knows of earlier sources, I would appreciate hearing about them.

At the risk of stating the obvious (a hobby of mine :):  While I don?t know of a source for the third person, the second person appears a number of times in ???? as in ?????? ?? ?, and the first person singular in ?????? ???. It seems a natural extension.

Zuki

--
Yitzchak M. Gottlieb
zukigottlieb at gmail.com<mailto:zukigottlieb at gmail.com>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/mesorah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180606/ced301f8/attachment.html<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.aishdas.org_pipermail_mesorah-2Daishdas.org_attachments_20180606_ced301f8_attachment.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=VTwaeXjOsAHot2hQQ0nozrBJwyviuCtydNuGwYGfYiI&r=e6XbAQdGwcl_5FMtQ-t1eA&m=NyUZlsZhFIVg-yOwFs3bcnmWF7umHyiPsdKoIeGRqV4&s=t2Y4xEW_Tk4KS5QESWppMh3i5WBlmmjvidy6XNRFxtk&e=>>

------------------------------

Subject: Digest Footer

_______________________________________________
Mesorah mailing list
Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:Mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/mesorah-aishdas.org<https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__lists.aishdas.org_listinfo.cgi_mesorah-2Daishdas.org&d=DwMFaQ&c=VTwaeXjOsAHot2hQQ0nozrBJwyviuCtydNuGwYGfYiI&r=e6XbAQdGwcl_5FMtQ-t1eA&m=NyUZlsZhFIVg-yOwFs3bcnmWF7umHyiPsdKoIeGRqV4&s=YjLoB4SoOvRNPL8MDaAUPqoRHzn2vaIUf7EpU-Zpzao&e=>

------------------------------

End of Mesorah Digest, Vol 109, Issue 3
***************************************

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/mesorah-aishdas.org/attachments/20180606/9adb23a8/attachment-0002.htm>