[Mesorah] aleph with a dagesh

Mon Apr 24 06:55:44 PDT 2017

My question is more basic than the grammar,  and concerns the
pronunciation: Is an aleph with a dagesh pronounced differently than an
aleph without one? And if different, can someone explain the difference, or
point to a recording that demonstrates the difference?

Akiva Miller

On Apr 24, 2017 9:46 AM, "Sholom Simon via Mesorah" <
mesorah at lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

> Without getting into the debate of whether grammar is descriptive or
> prescriptive . . .
>
> I guess the question is: why do those particular words have an
> alef-dagesh?  Is there any grammatical reason at all?  Or, is the answer:
> "we don't know, but that is the mesorah on those words"?
>
> At 12:22 PM 4/16/2017, Mandel, Seth wrote:
>
> I am not a chasid of all the attempts to uncover meanings in the Masorah
> before people understand the Masorah.
>
> The Masorah was not a composition of grammatical rules.  It was an attempt
> to commit to writing the traditional way of chanting/reciting the Biblical
> text.  The Masoretic apparatus was part of that, a way of making sure that
> the way words were written and pronounced were preserved.
>
> The tradiition was that the aleph was realized as a glottal stop.  In
> almost all languages with such a phoneme, it is sometimes elided and
> sometimes stressed, in addition to the normal pronunciation.
>
> Just as the Masorah shows which cases the aleph is elided (by not having
> any vocalization and a rafeh sign above it), it shows the places where it
> is stressed by putting in a dagesh.
>
> Only after understanding the totality of the Masorah would d'rushim become
> appropriate.  As was the case in Parshat Tzav, when various d'rushim of why
> the vayyishchat with a shalshelet reflects hesitation: the drush is based
> on ignorance of the Masorah, and ignorance of the intricacies of trop.
>
>
> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
>
>
> ------------------------------
> *From:* sholom90 at gmail.com <sholom90 at gmail.com> on behalf of Sholom Simon
> <sholom at aishdas.org>
> *Sent:* Sunday, April 16, 2017 12:00 PM
> *To:* Mandel, Seth; Mesorah AishDas List
> *Cc:* Micha Berger; Lori Linzer; debbyhowarth at aol.com; David and Esther
> Bannett
> *Subject:* aleph with a dagesh
>
> Over the yom tov, I noticed an aleph with a dagesh.  (As Emor is my son's
> bar mitzvah parsha, and, thus, he's layned it at our shul every Pesach-2
> and Sukkos 1 & 2, I'm surprised I didn't notice it before).
>
> I took a quick scan via the R'aG (rabbi google) and found the following at
> https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/35510/aleph-with-a-dagesh
>
> Anyone have any other comment?
>
> In four places in Tanakh, our text has an aleph with a dagesh: Gen 43:26,
> Lev 23:17, Job 33:21, and Ezra 8:18. What is the significance of this, and
> for the first two examples, how would you indicate its existence while
> laining?
>
> Commentaries that I've seen:
>
> Gen 43:26 -- Radak points out that it's there, but otherwise says nothing.
> Minchat Shai says to look in ñôø äð÷åã äâãåì from øá àùé, but I don't know
> where to find that.
>
> Lev 23:17 -- Ibn Ezra says he doesn't know what it means.
>
> Job 33:21 -- Malbim comments that this is from the binyan Pual, that
> normally comes with a dagesh.
>
> On all four, Minchat Shai mentions the phonomenon, but does not explain
> it, besides pointing to òøåîéí from Gen 2:25, where he says:
>
> îöàúé ìäøîØä æØì áä÷ãîú ñôøå ùëúá æä ìùåðå ëì àúà ã÷øéà ãâù áàåøééúà ìå
> ñîéê ìä î÷îà àúà ãëúéáà åìà ÷øéà áø îï çîùä úìú îðäåï îìàéí åàØå åúøéï
> îðäåï îìàéí éåØã
>
> and then lists òÈøåÌîÌÄéí, úÌÀìåÌðÌÉúÈí, úÌÀìåÌðÌÉú, and our two examples,
> åÇéÌÈáÄéàÌåÌ and úÌÈáÄéàÌå. I'm not sure of who he's quoting, and I'm
> having some trouble parsing the Aramaic, but he seems to be saying that the
> Vav and Yud male are causing a dagesh, but only in these five instances (in
> Torah). Can someone fully translate this passage, and help shed some light?
>
> I'll also add that in my tikkun, by Gen 43:26, there's a note to
> "pronounce the aleph strongly"!
>
> A good mo'ed everyone!
>
> -- Sholom
>
> On Sun, Apr 16, 2017 at 10:05 AM, Mandel, Seth <mandels at ou.org> wrote:
>
> I am sure all those who davened the Musaf prayers for Yom Tov also noted
> this other egregious example of a pausal form not at a etn'ha/silluq:
>
> ãá' èæ:èæ ùÑÈìåÉùÑ ôÌÀòÈîÄéí áÌÇùÌÑÈðÈä éÅøÈàÆä ëÈì-æÀëåÌøÀêÈ àÆú-ôÌÀðÅé
> éÀéÈ àÁìÉ÷ÆéêÈ áÌÇîÌÈ÷åÉí àÂùÑÆø éÄáÀçÈø, áÌÀçÇâ äÇîÌÇöÌåÉú åÌáÀçÇâ
> äÇùÌÑÈáËòåÉú åÌáÀçÇâ äÇñÌËëÌåÉú, åÀìÉà éÅøÈàÆä àÆú-ôÌÀðÅé éÀéÈ øÅé÷Èí.
> The word yivhar has a pausal form, even though the word has a zaqef and
> the etn'ha does not come until the word hassukkot.
> The reason is transparent.
> I am only pointing this out because there are so many examples of a pausal
> form not dictated by the trop, but people often miss them unless the
> pronunciation of the word is very different to their ears, like
> pesach-posach.
>
>
> Seth Mandel
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: Mandel, Seth
> Sent: Sunday, April 2, 2017 3:03 PM
> To: Sholom Simon; Micha Berger; Lori Linzer; debbyhowarth at aol.com; David
> and Esther Bannett
> Subject: Re: Pesach / Pasach
>
>
> Since no one else has replied, I will make my comments:
>
> The pausal form is not restricted to a silluq or etn'ha.  Although those
> two trop indeed represent a pause, pauses may occur elsewhere, in which the
> pausal form of the noun or verb is used.  Most people notice the pausal
> forms of the segholate nouns, since they may show a qomatz instead of a
> seghol, but verb pausal forms are even more common, where the form would
> be, for example, yikhtovu instead of yikht'vu, or yiqtol (with a qomatz)
> instead of yiqtal.  If one is sensitized to these forms, they are quite
> frequent outside of words with the two pausal trop.
>
> Here is one pasuq with two forms of the verb '-m'r:
>
> áø' èæ:ç åÇéÌÉàîÇø äÈâÈø ùÑÄôÀçÇú ùÒÈøÇé àÅé-îÄæÌÆä áÈàú åÀàÈðÈä úÅìÅëÄé
> åÇúÌÉàîÆø îÄôÌÀðÅé ùÒÈøÇé âÌÀáÄøÀúÌÄé àÈðÉëÄé áÌÉøÇçÇú.
> Neither appearance of the verb is at the silluq or etn'ha. The first time
> it has a pausal form, and the next time it does not.
>
> If and when you figure that one out, and even if you do not, the pasuq
> about the Pesach should be transparent.  This is one of the few p'suqim
> that lacks an etn'ha, and the major break in the pasuq is designated by the
> tip'ha.  If there were a few more words, there would indubitably have been
> an etn'ha on the word.  But with or without that trop, it is in a pausal
> situation, and so probably the best way to translate this would be "Let
> B'nei Yisrael do the pesach – at its proper time." The more precise way
> would involve intonation, with a pause indicated by the slowing of tempo
> when you say pesach, and a tone of voice indicating a meaning of "however."
>
>
> Rabbi Dr. Seth Mandel
> Rabbinic Coordinator
> The Orthodox Union
>
> Voice (212) 613-8330 <%28212%29%20613-8330>     Fax (212) 613-0718
> <%28212%29%20613-0718>     e-mail mandels at ou.org
>
>
> ------------------------------
> From: sholom90 at gmail.com <sholom90 at gmail.com> on behalf of Sholom Simon <
> sholom at aishdas.org>
> Sent: Tuesday, March 28, 2017 6:30 PM
> To: Mandel, Seth; Micha Berger; Lori Linzer; debbyhowarth at aol.com
> Subject: Pesach / Pasach
>
> Good chodesh everyone!
>
> In Bamidbar 9:2, and I saw that "pesach" was with a kametz, and it was not
> at the usual pausal position (esnachta or sof pasuk).  (In 9:4 "pesach"
> ends the pasuk, with the usual pausal kametz)
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
> Along the side of my "Simonim" tikkun is the following:
>
> [image: Inline image 2]
>
> Frankly, I can't understand it at all.  It *seems* like part of it is
> saying that when "pesach" follows a tevir, there's a kametz and that "all
> others" it's a segol -- but we know that's not true (unless he means: "in
> all other places that's not the usual pausal positions).
>
> Anyone have any thoughts?  (Or, perhaps it would be crystal clear if I
> could just figure out the translation of the comment! ;-) )
>
> -- Sholom
>
>
>
>
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