[Mesorah] Birkos Hannehenin Dialect

[Mandel, Seth via Mesorah]

Relying on the old mss is not dogmatic, it is standard scholarly practice.   If they all agree, then that was minhag Yisroel, and any grammarian who thinks he knows better than the ancient sources is committing a grievous methodological error (unfortunately, there were a lot if them, and just see what R Yaakov Emden had to say about some in L'shon Eres).
Feel free to make up your own rules and change the text. You will just be violating what Chazal say about changing the nusach.
I confirm that trying to establish the correct nusach is very difficult. But the only way is by studying the oldest mss. and classifying them, not by developing your own theory if what they should be.

Rabbi Seth Mandel
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 13, 2016, at 2:32 PM, "Richard Wolpoe via Mesorah" <mesorah at lists.aishdas.org<mailto:mesorah at lists.aishdas.org>> wrote:


RSM would ask what kind of mesorah is there to say ANY of tefillah (that isn't explicitly quoting Chazal, eg much of qorbanos) in leshon chazal?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha"


To me it's a silly question

Because we do not have anything in Hazal's own handwriting.

We have some guidelines and rules and we now have a source for how the language ideally should be, and that any deviation is thereby suspect as a corrruption

See the Beiur Hagra on using 2 matzos at the seder. The Gra - in line with Rif and Rambam takes a fanudamentalist read of Shas and use 2. The Rosh Tosafos et al, take a lomudhser read and presume lechem mishnah applies to Yamim Tovim.

The B"Y rejects his own Beth Din and paskens like Tosafos and Rosh over Rif/Rambam because that is the prevailing minhog.

WADR to RSM, he is apparently  making one dogmati?c presumption over another, namely that old manuscripts are superior to Grammatical restorations.

The GRA went with the presumptions of the Talmudic Norm. The B"Y followed the Rishonic norm. The GRA restored the Talmuidc norm based upon a perception of deviation from the preferred norm - namely Talmudic


So the Grammarians did much the some. Presuming the dialect of Anshie Knesses hagdolah etc. They preferred a Mikra norm over? a Mishnah Norm. I now gave a source as to how they may justify that thinking in a Halachic way.  The fact is it was done without a lot of protest or that it was aways mistabbeir might be further justifications


EG the facts show that Hirsch's siddur followe heidenheim without seeing him as a Reformer tend to give his methods his tacit approvals.





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