[Mesorah] Goy Gadol? or Gadol Atzum?

[Michael Poppers]

RAM wrote:
---
RSM continued:

<<< A classic example is Ex. 28:4, where the Torah is discussing the Bigdei
K'hunnah.  7 b'gadim are listed.  In modern English, we might separate all
with commas or perhaps semicolons, or we could make a numbered list, or use
bullets or letters.  None of those options are used in trop. So trop is
assigned to all 7 b'gadim. >>>

It seems to me that this example DOES use the trop to highlight the list.
The first four words of the pasuk ("There are the garments that they will
make") end with a r'vi'ee. I don't really know the rankings of the trop,
but to my balabatish ear, a r'vi'ee sure sounds like the pause before
beginning a list. I also see that the list ends with an esnachta, which
even this balabos knows to be a very major pause.
---
I didn't see RSM's message [yet], but having seen RAM's response, my
tuppence is yes, the trop does divide "ya'asu" from the list, and it also
divides within the list; but RSM's point may be that the division is
following the type of division we see elsewhere re *pisuq ta'amim* and
hence may be considered "normal" (falling within the *k'lal*[*im*] we infer
from Torah sheBiksav), such that one can't draw conclusions just because
the [half a] *pasuq* this time happens to contain a list.

Gut Voch/Shavu'a Tov and all the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA


On Sun, Apr 6, 2014 at 7:11 PM, Kenneth Miller <kennethgmiller at juno.com>wrote:

> R' Seth Mandel wrote: <<< Unless a list has subcategories, the trop used
> for the words is arbitrary in the sense that it follows rules of assigning
> trop if the meaning shows no major and minor elements. >>>
>
> I'm glad that you conceded this exception, because it highlights a point
> which I had meant to make, but I guess I should have made it more
> forcefully. Namely: Some lists have categories among the items that are
> listed, but *all* list have at least one major category, and that category
> is often named or described either before the list or after it.
>
> In the Hagada, Rabbi Eliezer brings a pasuk from Tehillim, which says that
> Hashem sent His "charon apo"; this "charon apo" is something that Hashem
> sent, and the pasuk lists four aspects to it. Rabbi Akiva reads the very
> same pasuk, but he sees a list of five distinct things that Hashem sent,
> with "charon apo" simply being the first item on the list.
>
> I concede RSM's point that trop does not make much difference to the items
> which are listed, but it seems to me that there should be a relatively
> major break at the point where the list begins. In the example above, if
> the trop on "charon apo" is a major break, that would give credence to
> Rabbi Eliezer's opinion that "charon apo" is the name of the category, and
> it is followed by a list of four aspects. But if the trop on "charon apo"
> is a minor break, or a connector, that would give credence to Rabbi Akiva's
> opinion that "charon apo" is not the the name of the category, but is
> merely the first in a list of five.
>
> RSM continued:
>
> <<< A classic example is Ex. 28:4, where the Torah is discussing the
> Bigdei K'hunnah.  7 b'gadim are listed.  In modern English, we might
> separate all with commas or perhaps semicolons, or we could make a numbered
> list, or use bullets or letters.  None of those options are used in trop.
> So trop is assigned to all 7 b'gadim. >>>
>
> It seems to me that this example DOES use the trop to highlight the list.
> The first four words of the pasuk ("There are the garments that they will
> make") end with a r'vi'ee. I don't really know the rankings of the trop,
> but to my balabatish ear, a r'vi'ee sure sounds like the pause before
> beginning a list. I also see that the list ends with an esnachta, which
> even this balabos knows to be a very major pause.
>
> Back to the Hagada -- If "Vayhi sham l'goy" ended with a major pause, it
> would seem clear to me that it would serve to separate the name of the
> category ("goy") from the list ("gadol atzum v'rav"). But it doesn't.
> "L'goy gadol" are joined by a mercha-tipcha, which -- I'm figuring this out
> while I'm typing it -- actually proves that there is not necessarily any
> specific title of the category.
>
> If so, then it can be read either as a list of four items ("goy gadol
> atzum v'rav" - because in lists, trop is a free-for-all except for the
> title), or as a title and a list of three ("goy: gadol atzum v'rav" -
> because why not?)
>
> I think I just proved RSM's point, at least for this case.
>
> Thank you all for playing. Johnny, what do we have for the winner?
>
> Akiva Miller
>
>
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