<div dir="ltr">He went in detail into chaos theory and quantum mechanics and showed that neither has anything to do with free will.<div><br></div><div>Chaos theory only says that the path is so complicated that we can't follow it and small changes can make a big difference</div><div>However it is completely deterministic</div><div><br></div><div>With quantum mechanics there is first the problem whether it applies to macroscopic systems. More problematic</div><div>is that it replaces determinism by probability that has nothing to do with free choice</div><div><br></div><div>RAM claim is that there is no proof for either detrminism or libertism. Since we we feel we have free will so that is the better choice</div><div>but there is certainly no proof for free will.</div><div><br></div><div>Again he has a whole series in Hebrew on the topic on his web site</div></div><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_attr">On Sun, Nov 29, 2020 at 8:29 PM Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org">micha@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Sat, Nov 28, 2020 at 07:31:51PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:<br>
> I have listened to about 10 shiurim of Rav Michael Avraham...<br>
> <br>
> He analyzes determinism vs free will from just about every angle from<br>
> philosophic to chaos theory to quantum mechanics to brain experiments.<br>
> <br>
> He basically comes to the conclusion that there does not exist any logic or<br>
> experiment that demonstrates determinism. All experiments have their weak<br>
> points and he doesn't believe that one could construct a better experiment<br>
> that would prove determinsim.<br>
<br>
Yeah, but, that just proves the possitility of "free".<br>
<br>
I mean the brain is arguably a perfectly designed Chaotic System, with<br>
85-100bn neurons in complicated non-linear feedback loops.<br>
<br>
Definition: Chaotic System: A system that is unpredictable because<br>
immeasurably small difference in initial conditions can create huge<br>
differences in outcome. Because the system has feedback, which can<br>
magnify a small change (or dampen it) in response to other microscopic<br>
differences. Like the proverbial butterfly fluttering its wings in Africa<br>
making the difference between whether or not a tornado develops in the US.<br>
<br>
But the brain is more than just chaotic. Because a neuron's behavior can<br>
depend on stimuli on the subatomic level -- a single photon or electron's<br>
state. Its microscopic initial conditions get down to quantum uncertainty.<br>
<br>
So the brain can end up in very different macroscopic states due to<br>
quantum randomness.<br>
<br>
Then there is the No Cloning Theorem, an idea in Quantum Mechanics<br>
which says that there is no way to copy an existing quantum state.<br>
(Entanglement is something else, since that's about a *shared* quantum<br>
state, not a copy.) No outside machine could ever determine what some<br>
brain's qauntum initial microscopic state was.<br>
<br>
So the "free" part of free will is done.<br>
<br>
Now, define "will". Rolling a die and getting a 6 isn't an expression<br>
of the will of the die.<br>
<br>
Free Will requires the mind to be both deterministic and not simply<br>
random.<br>
<br>
And if the mind is not physical, how does it intervene in causing physical<br>
effects without violating laws of nature. Even those, like quantum ones,<br>
that "only" give us probabilities.<br>
<br>
If quantum mechanics says that the odds of something happening is .5,<br>
the soul would have to interact with brains such that over huge numbers<br>
of interactions, it happens half the time.<br>
<br>
Me, I think this middle ground between deterministic and random is<br>
ineffible. I think R/Dr Moshe Koppel proves it exists in Metahalakhah<br>
ch. 2, and I summarized his demonstration a number of times on-list<br>
over the decades. One of which got edited and ended up on my blog<br>
<a href="https://www.aishdas.org/asp/neither-random-nor-predetermined" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://www.aishdas.org/asp/neither-random-nor-predetermined</a><br>
<br>
But I don't think we can say what it is. Because if we could describe it<br>
in words, we could turn it into an algorithm -- and it would be either<br>
deterministic or random.<br>
<br>
Tir'u baTov!<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Micha Berger The true measure of a man<br>
<a href="http://www.aishdas.org/asp" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">http://www.aishdas.org/asp</a> is how he treats someone<br>
Author: Widen Your Tent who can do him absolutely no good.<br>
- <a href="https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF" rel="noreferrer" target="_blank">https://amzn.to/2JRxnDF</a> - Samuel Johnson<br>
</blockquote></div><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr" class="gmail_signature"><div dir="ltr"><font color="#000099" face="'comic sans ms', sans-serif">Eli Turkel</font></div></div>