<div dir="ltr"><img width="0" height="0" class="mailtrack-img" alt="" style="display:flex" src="https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/f9f8023331fc11616281148219f4e00376fcb76d.png?u=1620389"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div></div><div></div><div></div><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><br><br><br><br><div class="gmail_quote"><div dir="ltr">On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 3:26 PM Micha Berger <<a href="mailto:micha@aishdas.org" target="_blank">micha@aishdas.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 06:37:28PM -0500, Zvi Lampel wrote: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
:> RMB </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">: This was already answered. The mistake people make in the more famous<br>
:> Rambans that created the popular notion that he says everything is a<br>
:> miracle is really the Ramban saying everything, even nature, is directly<br>
:> from G-d.<br>
<br>
: ZL: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> Ramban is not talking about everything. He is talking about the<br>
: miracle of Hashem making Nature respond to human behavior (whereas<br>
: otherwise he has the world follow the path of nature established at<br>
: Creation). He does not mention whether Hashem does this directly or<br>
: uses intermediaries.<br>
<br>RMB: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Except that he calls it a neis....</blockquote><div> </div><div><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">ZL: So does Rambam. I already cited my sources. Th</span><font color="#0000ff">ey both call sechar v-onesh through manipulating but not undoing minhago shel olom, a neis nistar. Rambam calls it the greatest neis nistar of all. So RambaN calling it a neis does not indicate he held it was any more or less ''directly'' from Hashem than RambaM did.</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">denies teva in the sense of minhago shel olam:</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> From the great and famous nissim a person comes to agree in [the</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> reality of] nissim hanistarim with is the yesood haTorah. For a</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> person has no cheileq beToras Mosheh Rabeinu until he believes that</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> all our things and everything that happens to us are all nisim,</blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> they have no teva and minhago shel olam, whether in a group or alone.</blockquote><div><br></div><div> <span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">ZL: I'll repeat myself. The subject of his clause, </span></div><div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"> all our things and everything that happens to us </blockquote><div><font color="#0000ff">is solely in reference to the events that affect human beings: the manipulated blissful or non-blissful weather, the successful or non-successful responses of nature to our behavior. Not the day-to-day behaviors of flora and fauna. I.e, specifically all OUR matters, and everything that happens TO US. THEY are not left to a unmanipulated minhago shel olom.</font></div><div><br></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">It can't both be Divine Intervention<br>
AND left to metaphysical mechanics.<br></blockquote><div> </div><div><font color="#0000ff">Again repeating myself, both Rambam and Ramban say that at creation, Hashem created the mechanics of minhago shel olom, but in the realm of sechar v-onesh He intervenes to manipulate it, producing a neis nistar. In contrast to neis niglah, it is metaphysical mechanics that divine intervention manipulates but does not undo.</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">The source I presented to show that Ramban too holds that outside the realm of reward and punishment the world runs as a machine: Ramban says that each ''veyhei chein'' in maaaseh breishis means Hashem established the minhago shel olom/teva of the phenomenon described. </font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">To introduce a new source, in his commentary on Devarim 18:9-12, discussing astrology, Ramban says that from the creation oft he world, Hashem created the spheres that cause minhago shel olom, and the angels that control the spheres.</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><font color="#0000ff">''When the Creator created everything out of nothing, He made the Elyonim controllers of the tachtonim below them...He vested in the stars and constellations power over the earth and all that is upon it...And over the stars and constellations he placed angels and minsters, as their life-force .''<br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><br>
And then, as he says just a bit later, after saying that everything fits<br>
sekhar va'onesh, "hakol begezeiras Elyon."<br>
<br>
Everything. Even the things the Rambam himself says later are left to teva.<br>
We have to close the circle somehow.<br></blockquote><div>... According to the Rambam, teva is the work of sikhliim nivdalim -- mal'akhim</div>and the active intellect. Hashem made a machine, and the machine runs on<br>its own -- except for those who can connects to the Reality beyond the<br>machine through knowing the Borei. (Moreh 3:18)<br><br>According to the Ramban, teva is begezeiras Elyon. Directly from<br>G-d. Neis. That's how it is in response to what we earned or what<br>we need. This neis is usually nistar, hidden in predictable patterns<br>(minhago shel olam) -- and those patterns we call "teva".</div><div class="gmail_quote"><br><div><font color="#0000ff">ZL: You are basing a lot on the Ramban using the expression ''hakol begeiras Elyon.'' But that expression, as well as ''neis,'' is no indication of disagreeing with the idea of Hashem intervening and conducting a neis nistar working through intermediaries to manipulate but not undo minhago shel olom. Rambam in Moreh Nevuchim has a chapter on this. And Ramban, in the above-reference commentary on Devarim 18:9-12 uses that very expression in describing the machine that Hashem made run on its own through the control of the angels over the spheres. </font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><font color="#0000ff">''When the Creator created everything out of nothing, He made the Elyonim controllers of the tachtonim below them...He vested in the stars and constellations power over the earth and all that is upon it...And over the stars and constellations he placed angels and minsters, as their life-force . And behold the control was /from the time of their coming into being until forever more, </font><font color="#38761d"><b>a gezeyras Elyon</b></font><font color="#0000ff"> [another girsa is Elyonim] that He placed in them/.'' </font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">The correct translation of ''gezeyras elyon[im] may even be ''a gezeyra about the upper world(s)/beings/forces,'' with elyon not being a reference to Hashem, just as it obviously is not in the first sentence of this passage.</span><br><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><font color="#0000ff">The gezeyas Elyon is what He placed into the forces that produce nature, the minhago shel olom. In the passage where Ramban declares that all that occurs to us is neis and not minhago shel olom or teva, he is contrasting our belief that Hashem, through neis nistar, manipulates minhago shel olom according to our deeds, with that of those who hold that nature runs mechanically with no connection to human behavior.<br></font><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div class="gmail_quote"><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">Realizing this answers all that you proceeded to write:</font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>...ZL: <br></blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">: Again, both RambaN and RambaM maintain that at Creation Hashem<br>
: imbued the components of the world with their normal natures...<br>
<br>RMB: You say that, but I don't see it in the Ramban.</blockquote><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">ZL: I cited his repeated explanation of vayehi chein, and now his commentary on Devarim 18:9-12. </font></div><div><br></div><div> RMB: [Ramban holds, contra RambaM, that] Physics does not</div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
inhere in physical objects, it inheres in Hashem's Will for His<br>
Action to be hidden by routine.<br>
<br>ZL: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">: Rambam additionally talks about the indirect mechanism being that<br>
: Hashem first created things/forces that produced these natures, and<br>
: RambaN does not. But I do not see RambaN making a point of<br>
: disputing the RambaM on this. He simply does not discuss it.<br>
<br>RMB: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">But what could the Ramban mean by everything being neis and gezeiras<br>
Elyon if we were to assert that he does believe that intermediate sikhliim<br>
are the gears and springs of a watch that usually runs on its own?<br></blockquote><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div><div><font color="#0000ff">ZL: This is again your unwarranted inference from the expressions neis and gezeiras Elyon.</font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>ZL: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">: But even if RambaN also disagreed with RambaM, I do not see why you<br>
: should frame the disagreement in terms of whether nature is a<br>
: ‘’thing’’ or not. RambaM uses no such language. Nature is as much<br>
: of a ‘’thing’’ to RambaN as it is to RambaM...<br>
<br>RMB: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">Except that one calls it a product of the Seikhel haPoal, and the other<br>
says it's all neis and gezeiras Elyon, even the things that aren't nissim<br>
in the usual sense.<br><div><font color="#0000ff"></font></div></blockquote><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><div><font color="#0000ff">ZL: This is again your inference from the expressions neis and gezeiras Elyon, which I showed is incorrect. Rambam speaks in terms of Seichel HaPoel setting up the world's machinery of spheres that influence matters on earth. Ramban speaks in terms of Hashem creating influencing spheres controlled by angels. Ramban considers Nature no less an ''it'' than Rambam. Rambam considers Nature no more an ''it'' than Ramban.</font></div><div><font color="#0000ff"><br></font></div>
...<br>RMB: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">:> To the Ramban, the question of teva vs neis is whether the situation<br>
:> calls for HQBH breaking His minhagim.<br>
: <br>ZL: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">: To the Rambam, as well.<br>
<br>RMB: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">To the Rambam, it is whether the people invovolved have the yedi'ah<br>
necessary to circumvent the action of the Seikhel haPoal.<br></blockquote><div> </div><div><font color="#0000ff">And RambaN (Devarim 18:13) speaks of Hashem </font><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">redirecting </span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)">the normal course of</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,255)"> the spheres to act in favor of those who draw close to Him</span><font color="#0000ff"> through their avodah. </font></div><div><pre><font color="#0000ff"> (In fact, Rambam in Maamar Terchiass HaMeisim [near the end], too, puts it terms of avodah:</font></pre><pre><font color="#0000ff">"The Torah amply states that the improvement of affairs that goes with
loyal service to Hashem, and their worsening that goes with rebellion, is a
continuous miracle...not due to a natural cause or the behavior of
metsius...And this is a miracle greater than any other miracle....". </font></pre><pre><font color="#0000ff">According to both, Hashem intervenes to manipulate the machinery of minhago shel olom based upon man's closeness to him.</font></pre></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br>ZL: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">: You want to say Ramban was mistaken in saying, without<br>
: qualification, he agreed with the Rambam?<br>
<br>RMB: </blockquote><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">The context of the Ramban's statement is qualification enough. He is<br>
saying that on the topic of whether hashgachah peratis is universal,<br>
he agrees with the Rambam that it isn't. No more, no less.<br>
<br>
Just as he didn't mean he agrees with the Rambam's that sekhar is<br>
hashgachah, but onesh is being abandoned to teva.</blockquote><div> </div><div><font color="#0000ff">ZL: I'll concede that point, although I'm still left with the question that the Rambam refers to minhago shel olom oneshim, too, as the greatest of nissim nistarim. How is abandonment to nature a neis? And he also refers to, for example, the Egyptians being punished for volunteering to fulfill the role of persecutors foretold of in the bris bein habesarim. The plagues were not a mere abandonment to nature... Tsaruch iyun....</font></div><div> </div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">To the Ramban, a person<br>
who deserves Hashem's aid in correcting himself will get oneshim from<br>
Him as needed.<br></blockquote><div><font color="#0000ff">ZL: That's an interesting twist on how to look at oneshim as a chessed.</font></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex">
<br><font color="#0000ff">Zvi Lampel</font></blockquote></div></div><br></div><br></div><br></div><br></div><br></div><br></div><br></div><br><div class="mt-signature">
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