<div dir="ltr"><img width="0" height="0" class="mailtrack-img" alt="" style="display:flex" src="https://mailtrack.io/trace/mail/786e9292b8503a89759944898cdd2ad91e3dc7b3.png?u=1620389"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div dir="ltr"><div></div><div></div><div></div><div dir="ltr">Fri, 05 Oct 2018 15:42:10 -0700, Rabbi <<a href="mailto:rabbi@opengemara.org" target="_blank">rabbi@opengemara.org</a>> wrote:<br></div><div dir="ltr"><br></div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0px 0px 0px 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace">The question is if we're working within nature or without. So hurricanes<br></span><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace">are natural, but Beriya very well may not (do you have a source that<br></span><span style="font-family:monospace,monospace">nature started from day 1 vs day 6 or when Adam was evicted from Gan<br></span><font face="monospace, monospace">Eden)?</font></blockquote><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p style="line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font face="monospace, monospace"><font color="#000000"><b>Yes, Chazal and the Rishonim all understood that the six day creation process was not a natural one.</b></font></font></p>
</div></div></div></div></div></div><blockquote style="margin:0px 0px 0px 40px;border:none;padding:0px"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p style="line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font face="monospace, monospace"><span style="color:black">''All of creation was created fully
formed''. At</span><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><i style="color:black">ma’aseh b’reishis</i><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">the ox was created not as a calf but
as an adult [Rashi in</span><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><i style="color:black">Rosh Hashanah</i><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">26a s.v.</span><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><i style="color:black">shor sheh-hu par</i><span style="color:black">]; and Adam was
likewise created as an adult standing fully erect, the Talmud reports, within the same 24-hour
period.</span></font></p></div></div></div></div></div></div></blockquote><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><div dir="ltr"><p style="line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font face="monospace, monospace"><span style="color:black">The idea that Creation was
anything less than a totally miraculous process, not conducted through natural
processes at all, ''accelerated” or otherwise, is rejected by the</span><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><b style="color:black"><i>Maharal</i></b><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">(</span><i style="color:black">Be’er HaGolah</i><span style="color:black">, p. 83,</span><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><i style="color:black">Be’er Four</i><span style="color:black">):</span><br></font></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="color:black"><font face="monospace, monospace">Know
that G-d brought out these creations, all of them, to
physical reality during the six days of<span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Breishis</i><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space"> </span>by Himself, in His Own Glory—not by
means of an agent, meaning Nature. Creation was contrary to the way things are
after the conclusion of the six days of<span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Breishis</i>,
wherein<span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Hashem Yisborach</i><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space"> </span>conducts His world by means of the
agent, i.e.<span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space"> </span><i>Nature</i>.<span></span></font></span></p>
<p style="line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font face="monospace, monospace"><font color="#000000">The</font><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><b style="color:black">Rambam</b><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><font color="#000000">explains in</font><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><i style="color:black">Moreh Nevuchim </i><font color="#000000">that it is illegitimate to base conclusions about the origin of the world by examining how the world looks now and assuming that the processes that would now produce such results were responsible, because the nature of things at their origin is different.</font></font></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0);font-family:monospace,monospace">EVERYTHING produced comes into existence from non-existence; even when the substance of a thing has been in existence, and has only changed its form, the thing itself, which has gone through the process of genesis and development, and has arrived at its final state, has now different properties from those which it possessed at the commencement of the transition from potentiality to reality, or before that time. Take, for example, the human ovum as contained in the female's blood when still included in its vessels: Its nature is different from what it was in the moment of conception, when it was met by the semen of the male and began to develop. The properties of the semen in that moment were different from the properties of the living being after its birth when fully developed. It is therefore quite impossible to infer, from the nature anything possesses after having passed through all stages of its development, what the condition of the thing had been at the time this process commenced. Nor does the condition of a thing in this moment show what its previous condition has been. If you make this mistake, and attempt to prove the nature of a thing in potential existence by its properties when actually existing, you will fall into great confusion: You win reject evident truths and admit false opinions.</span><br></p><p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font color="#000000" face="monospace, monospace">Let us assume, in our above instance, that a man born without defect had after his birth been nursed by his mother only a few months; the mother then died, and the father alone brought him up in a lonely island, till he grew up, became wise, and acquired knowledge. Suppose this man has never seen a woman or any female being: he asks some person how man has come into existence, and how he has developed, and receives the following answer: ''Man begins his existence in the womb of an individual of his own class, namely, in the womb of a female, which has a certain form. While in the womb he is very small; yet he has life, moves, receives nourishment, and gradually grows, till he arrives at a certain stage of development. He then leaves the womb and continues to grow till he is in the condition in which you see him.'' The orphan will naturally ask: ''Did this person, when he lived, moved, and grew in the womb, eat and drink, and breathe with his mouth and his nostrils? Did he excrete any substance?'' The answer will be, ''No.'' Undoubtedly he will then attempt to refute the statements of that person, and to prove their impossibility, by referring to the properties of a fully developed person, in the following manner:</font></p><p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font color="#000000" face="monospace, monospace">•<span style="white-space:pre"> </span>When any one of us is deprived of breath for a short time, he dies, and cannot move any longer. How then can we imagine that any one of us has been enclosed in a bag in the midst of a body for several months and remained alive, able to move?</font></p><p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font color="#000000" face="monospace, monospace">•<span style="white-space:pre"> </span>If any one of us would swallow a living bird, the bird would die immediately when it reached the stomach, much more so when it came to the lower part of the belly; if we should not take food or drink with our mouth, in a few days we should undoubtedly be dead! How then can a human being remain alive for months without taking food?</font></p><p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font color="#000000" face="monospace, monospace">•<span style="white-space:pre"> </span>If any person would take food and would not be able to excrete it, great pains and death would follow in a short time--and yet I am to believe that man has lived for months without that function?!</font></p><p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font color="#000000" face="monospace, monospace">•<span style="white-space:pre"> </span>Suppose by accident a hole were formed in the belly of a person, it would prove fatal, and yet we are to believe that the navel of the fetus has been open?!</font></p><p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font color="#000000" face="monospace, monospace">•<span style="white-space:pre"> </span>Why should the fetus not open the eyes, spread forth the bands and stretch out the legs, if, as you think, the limbs are all whole and perfect?!</font></p><p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font color="#000000" face="monospace, monospace">This mode of reasoning would lead to the conclusion that man cannot come into existence and develop in the manner described.</font></p><p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font face="monospace, monospace"><font color="#000000">We,
the community following in the footsteps of Moses and Abraham, believe that the
world came into being</font><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> IN</span><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><font color="#000000">such-and-such a form, and</font><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> BECAME<i> </i></span><font color="#000000">such-and-such</font><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> FROM </span><font color="#000000">such-and-such (</font><i style="color:black">haya kach mi-kach<span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space"> </span></i><font color="#000000">), and such</font><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><font color="#000000">WAS CREATED AFTER</font><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><font color="#000000">such. Aristotle comes to uproot our
words, bringing proofs against us based upon nature in its stabilized,
perfected and active state. As for
us, we declare against him that this is legitimate evidence [for determining processes that must have occurred] after nature’s having
settled down in its fully developed stage; but in no way does this correspond
to something’s characteristics</font><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><span style="color:black">at
its being brought into existence, and produced out of absolute non-existence</span><span class="gmail-m_-5625366993219481081gmail-m_8202748210990961260gmail-m_-1232925877788044998gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><font color="#000000">(MN 2:17).</font><span style="font-size:10pt;color:rgb(51,51,51)"><span></span></span></font></p>
<p style="line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font face="monospace, monospace"><font color="#000000">Shabbos marks the cessation of a process that was ongoing beforehand. If G-d's method of development of the world was through the same natural laws and processes in effect now, what ceased on the first Shabbos?</font><br></font></p>
<p style="margin-left:0.5in;line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="color:black"><font face="monospace, monospace">None
of the things mentioned above [the creation of Eve from Adam, the tree of life,
and the tree of knowledge, the history of the serpent and the events connected
therewith] is impossible, because THE LAWS OF NATURE WERE THEN [UNTIL THE END OF THE SIX DAYS] NOT PERMANENTLY FIXED (Ibid. 2:30).</font></span></p><p style="line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font face="monospace, monospace"><font color="#000000">The Ralbag uniquely understands specific statements by Chazal to be saying that </font><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)">Hashem created virtually everything simultaneously and instantaneously on the first day, all in their fully developed form (with the exception of the growth of vegetation of the fifth day) and that therefore</span><span style="color:rgb(0,0,0)"> </span><font color="#000000">the “days” of Creation are “categories.” This makes the creation process even less natural.</font><span style="color:black"> It is noteworthy that the approach of the Ralbag is to build the understanding through
the teachings of</span><span class="gmail-apple-converted-space" style="color:black"> </span><i style="color:black">Chazal</i><span style="color:black">,
and not through rejecting them on the basis that they differ with the science
of the day.</span></font></p><p style="line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><font face="monospace, monospace"><span style="color:black">Zvi Lampel</span></font></p><p style="line-height:13.5pt;background-image:initial;background-position:initial;background-size:initial;background-repeat:initial;background-origin:initial;background-clip:initial"><span style="font-size:12pt;font-family:Arial,sans-serif;color:black">
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