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<DIV>R’ Marty Bluke wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>“<FONT face="Times New Roman">R' Chaim Manaster wrote a long piece saying
that secular studies especially<BR>science "literally create emuna and awe of
the borei olam". While this may<BR>be true, the Charedi response is that
learning Torah is by far the best way<BR>to create emuna and awe of the borei
olam and of course the most important<BR>activity that a person can do bar none.
So why should we try to learn emuna<BR>from science when we can get it from the
ultimate source, Torah.”</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">My response to R’ Marty makes a number of
assumptions that may not be universally accepted but that I firmly
believe.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV>The times are different, the level of knowledge is different both in the
physical sciences and in Torah hakedosha. Dare I say that these as a function of
time seem to be moving on trajectories that are unfortunately inverse to each
other – particularly in the latter time frame that we live in – most intensely
over the last 10 to 12 decades but can already be clearly seen over the last 4
centuries. With each dor we can see an ongoing diminution in the level of our
Torah havanah while a commensurate level of greater scientific understanding has
come about (with perhaps the exception of a very few yechidei de’ah such as the
Gra and a few others who may have achieved levels more common in much earlier
times before them).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>While Chazal tell us “haphoch v’haphoch d’kol bah” and that certainly for
those who are capable of a great level of Torah understanding such as those of
Chazal who were doresh all the essin or all the taggin in the Torah
probably could have been able to find quantum mechanics or tensor analysis or
molecular biology in the Torah if they so chose. Certainly if the
scientists of our day were able to discover these facts, Chazal certainly were
able to as well. But I would point out that there is no maimre in Chazal that
relates to having discovered any of this knowledge through their pilpul and
passing this on to us. Perhaps they did not feel it important enough to report.
But this level of understanding in Torah in our times is sadly not available in
our times. Given the level of limud for the average person (unlike for some of
the gedolim of our times) in our time the level of yira and emuna they might
achieve may be more readily attained through a more readily available scientific
study of the wonders of the very small and the vastness of the very large and
the highly intricate and awe inspiring workings of the biological world at
all scales and the beauty in how it all fits together so perfectly and so
beautifully described by mathematics. The average person (maybe I am just giving
away my matsav) will not find much yira or emuna from learning that which is
typical of our yeshivos (say a sugia in shas say “succa govoah m’esrim ama or a
sugia on movuy or on tumas negaim – of hilchos melicha or muktsa in
shulchan aruch etc). For the average person these are not awe inspiring subjects
and unfortunately only a true godol or great talmid chochom could extract yira
and emunah from these cut and dry subjects. Such inspiration for the average yid
are fewer and much further in between from most of his limud of Torah. This as a
result of our sad diminution in our Torah learning ability. Today, given
our greater abilities in understanding the Borei’s briah it is much easier for
us to find yira and emuna from our hisbonenus in them. So “<FONT
face="Times New Roman">of course the most important activity that a person can
do bar none” is Torah, but a very solid adjunct in our times for a vehicle to
further inspire yira and emunah would very effectively be math and scientific
knowledge.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Part of the mitsva of emuna, is not simply
belief, but to go out and prove to your satisfaction (to be doresh v’choker) the
truth of the Borei and his achdus and that he is the Borei olam and
revealed Himself to us at matan Torah and so on. To the extent that science
facilitates this search it is a MITSVA and not just mere secular studies at the
cost of Torah studies. Clearly the experience our ancestors experienced at
yetsias Mitzrayim, al hayam (ma sheroaso shifcha al hayam etc) and revelation on
sinai etc was more than enough to inspire tremendous yira, awe and emunah
without the need for any help from science (which was not great in their period
in any case) and on through the period of the nevi’im and the batei mikadash and
later Chazal inspiration was possible through there havana of Torah alone. But I
do not see that to be the case in our generation and times.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">“</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman">So why
should we try to learn emuna from science when we can get it from the ultimate
source, Torah”? Because in our day it may be another additional (I hesitate to
say “more” effective way b’avonoseinu harabim for most people) very effective
way for most average people.”</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">So today, for the yechidei olom the tried and
true method of attaining great yira and emunah through limud Torah may be the
best way to go as we have witnessed these great traits in our great gedolim, but
that recipe may not work so well in our times for everybody else without
additional help.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">I am also not comfortable with the notion that
there are certain areas of knowledge that are off limits to even our gedolim. I
feel quite confident to assert that in our time, non of even our gedolim come to
discover the great advances in science through there limud
hatorah.</FONT> <FONT face="Times New Roman">If they know these subjects it
came from sources outside of their linudei kodesh. But Chazal was not
constrained in their knowledge. They were required to know shivim loshonos, they
studied kishuv and astrolgy and the chukos hagoyim and certainly the science of
their day (sometimes even quoting chachmei ha’umos and cf the Rambam quoting
Aristo often etc [I also imagine the Rambam learned his medicine in the
conventional way mostly including sources outside of Torah]). I feel sad for
many talmidei chachamim in our day who lack the background in (sometimes in even
minimal) math and science to grasp that they are saying a peshat in a sugia that
could not be, and to seek out another peshat therein or to at least realize
there is a problem they need to deal with to get a proper havana.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Also the chiyuv to teach a son an umnus,
obviously means, other than the chiyuv to teach one’s son Torah. We do not
assume that his limud haTorah will suffice to teach him an umnus as well. The
conventional “secular” methods of teaching an umnus are to be followed. If you
want your son to be a carpenter, send him to carpentry school – do not expect
him to come from yeshiva a talmid chochom AND a carpenter just from his limud
haTorah.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Kol tuv</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Chaim Manaster</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV></DIV></DIV><div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
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