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<font size=3>At 04:31 AM 4/15/2018, Marty Bluke wrote:<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">R' Yitzchak Levine wrote:<br>
"In conclusion, I think that what Rabbi Leibowitz <br>
wrote is irrelevant to today's world. I am <br>
surprised that you even bothered to quote him."<br><br>
And yet the overwhelming majority of the Charedi world agrees with his
teshuva. </font></blockquote><br>
If so, then how do you account for the many Chareidim here in the US who
attend Touro College, enroll in TTI (See
<a href="https://goo.gl/hnRCy6" eudora="autourl">https://goo.gl/hnRCy6</a>
), attend the training programs the Agudah sponsors both here in
Brooklyn and in Lakewood, as well as many other options
available. Many seminaries today offer programs leading to college
degrees both here and in Israel.<br><br>
My understanding is that more and more Chareidim, both men and
women, in EY are pursuing higher secular education.<br><br>
<br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite=""><font size=3>There is no
question that the simple reading of the Rama is like R' Baruch Ber. The
Rama writes:<br><br>
"But it is not for a person to learn anything but Torah, Mishna and
Gemara and the halachic decisors that come after them and through this
they will acquire this world and the world to come. But not with learning
any other wisdoms. In any case, it is permitted to learn through
happenstance all other knowledge as long as it isn't a book of
heresy. This is what called by the Rabbis a trip in the Pardes, A
person should not take a trip in the Pardes until he has filled his belly
with meat and wine [Torah] and he knows the lasw of issur v'heter and the
laws relating to mitzvos"<br><br>
The Rama clearly writes that secular studies cannot be learned on a
regular set basis. Not only that, but he writes that even happenstance
secular studies should only be done AFTER you know shas and
poskim.</font></blockquote><br>
Yet the GRA studied mathematics in his youth.<br><br>
<font size=3>From
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Isserles" eudora="autourl">
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Isserles</a><br><br>
Not only was Isserles a renowned Talmudic and
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha">legal scholar</a>, he was
also learned in
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah">Kabbalah</a>, and
studied <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History">history</a>,
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astronomy">astronomy</a> and
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy">philosophy</a>. He
taught that “the aim of man is to search for the cause and the meaning of
things” ("Torath ha-Olah" III., vii.). He also held that
"it is permissible to now and then study secular wisdom, provided
that this excludes works of heresy... and that one [first] knows what is
permissible and forbidden, and the
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakha">rules</a> and the
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitzva">mitzvot</a>"
(<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shulkhan_Aruch">Shulkhan
Aruch</a>, <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoreh_De%27ah">Yoreh
De'ah</a>, 246, 4).
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maharshal">Maharshal</a>
reproached him for having based some of his decisions on
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotle">Aristotle</a>. His
reply was that he studied
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_philosophy">Greek
philosophy</a> only from
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maimonides">Maimonides</a>’
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guide_for_the_Perplexed"><i>Guide
for the Perplexed</a></i>, and then only on
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shabbat">Shabbat</a> and
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_holidays">Yom Tov</a> (holy
days) - and furthermore, it is better to occupy oneself with philosophy
than to err through
<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah">Kabbalah</a>
(<a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsa">Responsa</a> No. 7).
<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">And how many people are capable
of capable of learning "anything but Torah, Mishna and Gemara and
the halachic decisors that come after them." as I
pointed out earlier the Meddrah in Koheles as well as the Mishna Brurah
make it clear that only a very small percentage of people are capable of
studying Torah all day.</font></blockquote><br>
Also, have not times changed since the time of the RAMA?<br><br>
<font size=3>The following is taken from <b>Rav Schwab on Chumash</b>,
Parshas Acharei Mos. <br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>"At
all times the Torah's unchanging teachings must be applied to the<br>
ever-changing </font><font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3><i>derech
eretz. </i></font>All of our actions, attitudes, relationships to<br>
man and beast, and positions within nature and history are subject to
the<br>
jurisdiction and evaluation of the Torah.<br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>"What
follows is that the Torah scholar should be well informed of the<br>
'ways of the Earth.' The laws of nature and the paths of history
should<br>
be known to him. He should be well aware of what happens in the<br>
world that surrounds him, for he is constantly called upon to apply
the<br>
yardstick of halachah and the searchlight of
<font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3><i>hashkafah </i></font>to the
realities<br>
that confront him.<br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>"What
also follows is that the greater the wisdom of Torah, the more<br>
crucial it is that this wisdom be conveyed to the Jewish
contemporary<br>
world. It must be transmitted in a language that our generation<br>
understands and that will attract the searching youth, the ignorant,
the<br>
estranged and the potential
<font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3><i>ba</font>
1<font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3>al teshuvah </i></font>to a
joyous acceptance of the<br>
yoke of Heaven. The Torah leader must be able to dispel the doubts<br>
of the doubter and to counter the cynicism of the agnostic. He must,<br>
therefore, speak their language masterfully so that he can convince
and<br>
enlighten them.<br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>
"There is indeed a dire need for
<font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3><i>gedolei Torah,
</i></font>great Torah scholars,<br>
who devote their entire lives to the study and dissemination of
Torah.<br>
The Jewish world today needs many
<font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3><i>talmidei chachamim
</i></font>whose life<br>
task is to enlighten and inspire it with the <i>love </i>and the fear of
G-d. <i>We<br>
</i>are ready to accord to those 'messengers of G-d' the highest respect
and<br>
a loyal following. These are the
<font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3><i>kohanim </i></font>and
<font face="Times New Roman, Times" size=3><i>levi'im </i></font>of
today. Like the<br>
members of the Levitic tribe of old, they are to <i>serve </i>all the
other tribes<br>
and teach them the living Torah.<br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>"Yet
education and leadership cannot function in a vacuum. Therefore<br>
it becomes mandatory for the present day 'Tribe of Levi' to initiate
and<br>
encourage an educational system that can <i>serve </i>the other
"eleven tribes<br>
who comprise the vast majority of our people. It becomes mandatory<br>
for the Torah-conscious educator not to inspire fear of the world
and<br>
hesitancy to meets its challenges, but rather, to fortify the <i>vast
</i>majority of<br>
our youth to meet head-on the thousand and one pitfalls of
professional<br>
and business life. Our youth must be inspired to courageously and<br>
intelligently brave the onslaught of scientific arrogance and the
sensual<br>
poison that is masked as intellectual liberalism.<br><br>
<x-tab> </x-tab>"The
Divine purpose for which Yisrael was created can be served in<br>
<i>every </i>capacity, in <i>every </i>profession, in all human
endeavors, as long as<br>
they are not excluded by the halachah."<br><br>
YL<x-tab> </x-tab><br><br>
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