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<p>The Rambam certainly believes that some midrashim are factual and historical. He brings parts of the midrashim about Avraham Avinu's early life as a historical narrative (in the old fashioned sense) at the beginning of Hilchos AZ. That material is not brought
there for any other reason than to understand the historical facts. </p>
<p>Since that's the case there, one could reasonably assume that there are other midrashim he also takes to be factual, so I can't see how you could attribute to the Rambam a position of all midrashim being non-literal. </p>
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<p>Ben</p>
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<div id="x_divRplyFwdMsg" dir="ltr"><font face="Calibri, sans-serif" color="#000000" style="font-size:11pt"><b>From:</b> Avodah <avodah-bounces@lists.aishdas.org> on behalf of via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
<b>Sent:</b> 26 July 2017 08:49<br>
<b>To:</b> avodah@lists.aishdas.org<br>
<b>Subject:</b> Avodah Digest, Vol 35, Issue 95</font>
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Here’s a hopefully useful but incomplete list of acronyms that are standard to Avodah, but aren’t in common usage. I marked each either “A” for those specific ...</div>
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(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)<br>
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Today's Topics:<br>
<br>
1. Washing Clothes During the 9 Days (Professor L. Levine via Avodah)<br>
2. The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
(Micha Berger via Avodah)<br>
3. Menorah on Arch of Titus (Micha Berger via Avodah)<br>
4. Re: The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
(Micha Berger via Avodah)<br>
5. Showering During the 9 Days (Professor L. Levine via Avodah)<br>
6. Re: The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
(Zev Sero via Avodah)<br>
7. Re: The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
(Micha Berger via Avodah)<br>
8. Re: alma vs. almah (elazar teitz via Avodah)<br>
9. Re: alma vs. almah (Micha Berger via Avodah)<br>
10. Re: The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
(Zev Sero via Avodah)<br>
11. Re: The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
(Micha Berger via Avodah)<br>
<br>
<br>
----------------------------------------------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 1<br>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 13:47:36 +0000<br>
From: "Professor L. Levine via Avodah" <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: "avodah@aishdas.org" <avodah@aishdas.org><br>
Subject: [Avodah] Washing Clothes During the 9 Days<br>
Message-ID: <1500990347324.64391@stevens.edu><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
The following is from today's OU Kosher Halacha Yomis<br>
<br>
<br>
Q. I am picking up my Bar Mitzvah boy from camp during the Nine Days. All of his clothing is in need of washing, otherwise he'll have nothing clean to wear. Under the circumstances may I wash his clothing during the Nine Days? (A Subscriber's Question)<br>
<br>
<br>
A. Rama (OC 551:3) tells us that the Ashkenazi minhag is not to launder clothing during the Nine Days. However, the Mishna Berura (ibid. 29) in the name of the Eliyah Rabah (ibid., Shaar Hatziyun 33) rules that if one has only one garment, or many garments
which all require cleaning (see Piskei Teshuvos Vol. 6 p. 80:21), it is permitted to wash and do the laundry up until the week in which Tisha B'Av falls.<br>
<br>
In a case that one is permitted to do laundry, you may wash whatever clothing you will need for the duration of the Nine Days. In the past, one was only allowed to wash one garment at a time, as needed. But in our generation, when the push of a button can wash
an entire load, this restriction does not apply (see Shu"t Minchas Yitzchok 8:50, Shu"t Yabia Omer 7:48 and Shu"t Be'er Moshe 7:32). However, one is not allowed to add clothing needed for after the Nine Days (Piskei Halachos ibid. end of 21).<br>
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Message: 2<br>
Date: Tue, 25 Jul 2017 15:40:03 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>, Avodah Torah Discussion Group<br>
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Subject: [Avodah] The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
Message-ID: <20170725194003.GB32176@aishdas.org><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 01:05:59PM -0400, Zev Sero via Areivim wrote:<br>
: On 25/07/17 12:18, Prof. Levine via Areivim wrote:<br>
:> Even today there are people who are willing to believe fantastic<br>
:> stories that could not possibly be true. Some years ago there was<br>
:> the story of the so-called talking fish. There were people who<br>
:> did indeed believe it. I once discussed this story with a<br>
:> neighbor and pointed out that it had been debunked. She replied,<br>
:> "But it could have happened." I decided not to say more.<br>
<br>
: You are not required to believe that this story did happen, but you<br>
: *are* required to believe that it could have happened. To claim<br>
: that He Who gave man a mouth cannot give one to a donkey or a fish<br>
: is apikorsus.<br>
<br>
Not 100%, it depends on the modality of the words "could" and "possibly"<br>
here.<br>
<br>
Yes, HQBH could do anything, the question of whether "anything" includes<br>
the paradoxical I will leave for the rishonim to argue.<br>
<br>
But there are things we know He wouldn't do. Such as rewarding sin.<br>
(And don't quibble about rewarding it in the short term for some other<br>
purpose, later punishment, or whatever. There is an iqar that overall<br>
net-net-net, sin is punished.)<br>
<br>
And if someone believes that HQBH wouldn't give a fish the power to talk<br>
during an era of hesteir panim, I would not label them an apiqoreis. In<br>
fact, I would be inclined to agree.<br>
<br>
And therefore, the story "could not possibly be true" if we limit our<br>
possibilities to the world of things that don't defy what we believe<br>
about Retzon haBorei.<br>
<br>
Quoting the rest not because I have what to say about it, but<br>
because it more belongs on Avodah than on Areivim:<br>
: The set of true events is necessarily an infinitesimal subset of the<br>
: set of possible events, which is in turn an infinitesimal subset of<br>
: the set of conceivable events. Whether a talking fish is in the<br>
: first set is a question of evidence, and skepticism is appropriate,<br>
: but whether it's in the second set or only in the third set is a<br>
: question of emunah.<br>
<br>
: I have not heard that the story was in fact debunked, and I wonder<br>
: whether this is true, but if so it doesn't surprise me. Such<br>
: stories are more likely to be hoaxes than true...<br>
<br>
:> There are people today who insist on taking midrashim literally<br>
:> even though both RSRH and Reb Yisroel Salanter said that they were<br>
:> not to be taken literally.<br>
<br>
: What if they did say this? No matter how often you pretend they are<br>
: the definitive voices of Judaism, and all Jews must accept their<br>
: opinions, it won't be any truer.<br>
<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Micha Berger Zion will be redeemed through justice,<br>
micha@aishdas.org and her returnees, through righteousness.<br>
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Message: 3<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 11:59:25 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Subject: [Avodah] Menorah on Arch of Titus<br>
Message-ID: <20170726155925.GA6721@aishdas.org><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
One of the arguments against the menorah on the Arch of Titus harasha<br>
being The Menorah taken from the Heikhal is the base. It has an octoganol<br>
base. If it even had three feet, they were short extensions of that base<br>
that didn't show up in what's left of the relief. Maybe small balls. There<br>
is no indication of any. Either way, 3 feet on an octagon lacks symmetry<br>
-- 3 of 8 sides or corners had a foot? But the bigger problem is that<br>
it has representational art on it. The Menorah would not have reliefs<br>
of sea lions, hippocamps, dragons, eagles (their garland, maybe), etc...<br>
<br>
(Of course then there's the whole curved arm vs alakhson thing, but<br>
we've discussed that enough times before.)<br>
<br>
Which is why I was surprised to see this quote from Josephus. I would<br>
think it would be mandatory reading for any discussion of the subject,<br>
but it was new to me.<br>
<br>
So I'm sharing.<br>
<br>
But for those that were taken in the temple of Jerusalem, they<br>
made the greatest figure of them all; that is, the golden table,<br>
of the weight of many talents; the candlestick also, that was made<br>
of gold, though its construction were now changed from that which<br>
we made use of; for its middle shaft was fixed upon a basis, and the<br>
small branches were produced out of it to a great length, having the<br>
likeness of a trident in their position, and had every one a socket<br>
made of brass for a lamp at the tops of them. These lamps were in<br>
number seven, and represented the dignity of the number seven among<br>
the Jews; and the last of all the spoils, was carried the Law of<br>
the Jews ...<br>
- Jewish War (VII.5.5)<br>
<br>
I don't know if the basis is the change in construction or -- like the<br>
branches -- just a description of the original. Brass neiros?<br>
<br>
But it could be read as:<br>
the menorah also, that was made of gold (though its construction<br>
were now changed from that which we made use of, for its middle<br>
shaft was fixed upon a base), and the small branches were produced<br>
out of it to a great length...<br>
<br>
Which would solve the above problems.<br>
<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Micha Berger Zion will be redeemed through justice,<br>
micha@aishdas.org and her returnees, through righteousness.<br>
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Message: 4<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 12:50:58 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>, avodah<br>
Cc: Allan Engel <allan.engel@gmail.com><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
Message-ID: <20170726165058.GC12535@aishdas.org><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 05:11:46PM -0400, Zev Sero via Areivim wrote:<br>
: On 25/07/17 16:48, Allan Engel wrote:<br>
: >That would be obvious and would hardly need saying, as many<br>
: >midrashim contradict each other.<br>
: <br>
: And that is all the Rambam is saying. He's *not* making some bold<br>
: statement against medroshim-as-history. He's defining who's an<br>
: apikores, and including those who reject midroshim, so he has to<br>
: specify that this doesn't mean one must make ones head explode by<br>
: accepting every single medrosh as literally true. Some are<br>
: literally true, some aren't, and one must use ones best judgment<br>
: about which is which.<br>
: <br>
: This implies that on many specific medroshim there will be<br>
: legitimate differences of opinion, and therefore one can't dismiss<br>
: someone as an apikores merely because he holds a specific medrosh to<br>
: be non-literal; one must inquire further and find out *why* he holds<br>
: so, because he might have a legitimate reason.<br>
<br>
I think you misrepresent the Rambam. The original is here<br>
<<a href="http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/rambam/hakdamat-2.htm#3" id="LPlnk595533" previewremoved="true">http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/rambam/hakdamat-2.htm#3</a>> (scrolled
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הוי יודע, כי בעלי התורה נחלקו דעותיהם בטובה שתגיע לאדם בעשיית המצות שציונו בהם השם יתברך ע"י ...</div>
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<br>
to the right place in the intro to Cheileq), but given that the list<br>
STILL can't do Hebrew, here's a translation from Merkaz Moreshet haRambam<br>
<<a href="https://www.mhcny.org/qt/1005.pdf" id="LPlnk132347" previewremoved="true">https://www.mhcny.org/qt/1005.pdf</a>> (paragraphing theirs). I do not know
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<a id="LPUrlAnchor_15011369104720.16470502367351592" href="https://www.mhcny.org/qt/1005.pdf" target="_blank" style="text-decoration: none;">Entire Intro to Perek Helek - Maimonides Heritage Center</a></div>
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Maimonides Introduction to Perek Helek 3 world to come is the ultimate good or whether some other possibility is. Nor does one often find persons who distinguish ...</div>
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<br>
how you can read the following and conclude anything but his insistence<br>
that midrashic stories are NOT history, and that<br>
1- people who think otherwise and therefore believe nimna'os are<br>
aniyei daas, yeish lehitzta'er aleihem lesikhlusam;<br>
2- people who think these stories are meant to be historical, realize<br>
they can't be, and yi'agu al divrei chakhamim; and<br>
3- the wise few know that all they say about devarim hanimna'im were<br>
said bederekh chidah umashal.<br>
<br>
I see nothing at all there about machloqes, only about learning nimshalim<br>
and not taking impossible meshalim as historical fact.<br>
<br>
Here is the section in full:<br>
<br>
You must know that the words of the sages are differently interpreted<br>
by three groups of people.<br>
<br>
The first group is the largest one. I have observed them read their books,<br>
and heard about them. They accept the teachings of the sages in their<br>
simple literal sense and do not think that these teachings contain any<br>
hidden meaning at all. They believe that all sorts of impossible things<br>
must be. They hold such opinions because they have not understood science<br>
and are far from having acquired knowledge. They possess no perfection<br>
which would rouse them to insight from within, nor have they found anyone<br>
else to stimulate them to profounder understanding. They, therefore,<br>
believe that the sages intended no more in their carefully emphatic and<br>
straightforward utterances than they themselves are able to understand<br>
with inadequate knowledge. They understand the teachings of the sages<br>
only in their literal sense, in spite of the fact that some of their<br>
teachings when taken literally, seem so fantastic and irrational that<br>
if one were to repeat them literally, even to the uneducated, let alone<br>
sophisticated scholars, their amazement would prompt them to ask how<br>
anyone in the world could believe such things true, much less edifying.<br>
<br>
The members of this group are poor in knowledge. One can only regret their<br>
folly. Their very effort to honor and to exalt the sage sin accordance<br>
with their own meager understanding actually humiliates them. As God<br>
lives, this group destroys the glory of the Torah of God say the opposite<br>
of what it intended. For He said in His perfect Torah, "The nation is a<br>
wise and understanding people" (Deut. 4:6). But this group expounds the<br>
laws and the teachings of our sages in such a way that when the other<br>
peoples hear them they say that this little people is foolish and ignoble.<br>
<br>
The worst offenders are preachers who preach and expound to the masses<br>
what they themselves do not understand. Would that they keep silent about<br>
what they do not know, as it is written: "If only they would be utterly<br>
silent, it would be accounted to them as wisdom" (Job 13:5). Or they<br>
might at least say, "We do not understand what our sages intended in this<br>
statement, and we do not know how to explain it." But they believe they<br>
do understand, and they vigorously expound to the people what they think<br>
rather than what the sages really said. They, therefore, give lectures to<br>
the people on the tractate Berakhot and on this present chapter, and other<br>
texts, expounding them word-for-word according to their literal meaning.<br>
<br>
The second group is also a numerous one. It, too, consist of persons who,<br>
having read or heard the words of the sages, understand them according<br>
to their simple literal sense and believe that the sages, understand<br>
them according to their simple literal sense and believe that the sages<br>
intended nothing else than what may be learned from their literal<br>
interpretation. Inevitably, they ultimately declare the sages to be<br>
fools, hold them up to contempt, and slander what does not deserve to<br>
be slandered. They imagine that their own intelligence is of a higher<br>
order than that of the sages, and that the sages were simpletons who<br>
suffered from inferior intelligence. The members of this group are so<br>
pretentiously stupid that they can never attain genuine wisdom. Most of<br>
these who have stumbled into this error are involved with medicine or<br>
astrology. They regard themselves as cultivated men, scientist, critics,<br>
and philosophers. How remote they are from true humanity compared to<br>
real philosophers! They are more stupid than the first group; many of<br>
them are simply fools.<br>
<br>
This is an accursed group, because they attempt to refute men of<br>
established greatness whose wisdom has been demonstrated to competent<br>
men of science. If these fools had worked at science hard enough to know<br>
how to write accurately about theology and similar subjects both for<br>
the masses and for the educated, and if they understood the relevance of<br>
philosophy, then they would be in a position to understand whether the<br>
sages were in fact wise or not, and the real meaning of their teachings<br>
would be clear to them.<br>
<br>
There is a third group. Its members are so few in number that it is<br>
hardly appropriate to call them a group, except in the sense in which<br>
one speaks of the sun as a group (or species) of which it is the only<br>
member. This group consists of men whom the greatness of our sages is<br>
clear. They recognize the superiority of their intelligence from their<br>
words which point to exceedingly profound truths. Even though this<br>
third group is few and scattered, their books teach the perfection<br>
which was achieved by the authors and the high level of truth which<br>
they had attained. The members of this group understand that the sages<br>
knew as clearly as we do the difference between the impossibility of<br>
the impossible and the existence of that which must exist. They know<br>
that the sages did not speak nonsense, and it is clear to them that the<br>
words of the sages contain both an obvious and a hidden meaning. Thus,<br>
whenever the sages spoke of things that seem impossible, they were<br>
employing the style of riddle and parable which is the method of truly<br>
great thinkers. For example, the greatest of our wise men (Solomon)<br>
began his book by saying: "To understand an analogy and a metaphor,<br>
the words of the wise and their riddles" (Prov. 1:6).<br>
<br>
All students of rhetoric know the real concern of a riddle is with its<br>
hidden meaning and not with its obvious meaning, as: "Let me now put forth<br>
a riddle to you" (Judges 14:12). Since the words of the sages all deal<br>
with supernatural matters which are ultimate, they must be expressed in<br>
riddles and analogies. How can we complain if they formulate their wisdom<br>
in analogies and employ such figures of speech as are easily understood<br>
by the masses, especially when we note that the wisest of all men did<br>
precisely that, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit? I have in mind<br>
Solomon in Proverbs, the Song of Songs, and parts of Ecclesiastes.<br>
<br>
It is often difficult for us to interpret words and to educe their true<br>
meaning from the form in which they are contained so that their real<br>
inner meaning conforms to reason and corresponds with truth. This is<br>
the case even with Holy Scriptures. The sages themselves interpreted<br>
Scriptural passages in such a way as to educe their inner meaning from<br>
literal sense, correctly considering these passages to be figures of<br>
speech, just as we do. Examples are their explanations of the following<br>
passages: "he smote the two altar-hearths of Moab; he went down also and<br>
slew a lion in the midst of a pit" (II Sam. 23:20); "Oh, that one would<br>
give me water to drink of the well of Bethlehem" (ibid. 23:15). The<br>
entire narrative of which these passages are a part was interpreted<br>
metaphorically. Similarly, the whole Book of Job was considered by many<br>
of the sages to be properly understood only in metaphoric terms. The<br>
dead bones of Ezekiel (Ezek. 37) were also considered by one of the<br>
rabbis to make sense only in metamorphic terms. Similar treatment was<br>
given to other passages of this sort.<br>
<br>
Now if you, reader, belong to either of the first two groups, pay no<br>
attention to my words nor to anything else in this section. You will not<br>
like it. On the contrary, it will irritate you, and you will hate it. How<br>
could a person who is accustomed to eating large amounts of harmful<br>
food find simple food in small quantities appealing, even though they<br>
are good for him? On the contrary, he will actually find them irritating<br>
and he will hate them. Do you not recall the reaction of the people who<br>
were accustomed to eating onions, garlic, fish, and the like? They said:<br>
"Now our soul is dried away; there is nothing at all; we have naught<br>
save this manna to look to" (Num. 11:6).<br>
<br>
But if you belong to the third group, when you encounter a word of the<br>
sages which seems to conflict with reason, you will pause, consider it,<br>
and realize that this utterance must be a riddle or a parable. You will<br>
sleep on it, trying anxiously to grasp its logic and its expression, so<br>
that you may find its genuine intellectual intention and lay hold of a<br>
direct faith, as Scripture says: "To find out words of delight, and that<br>
which was written uprightly, even words of truth" (Eccles. 12:10). If<br>
you consider my book in this spirit, with the help of God, it may be<br>
useful to you.<br>
<br>
<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Micha Berger Zion will be redeemed through justice,<br>
micha@aishdas.org and her returnees, through righteousness.<br>
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Message: 5<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 17:36:59 +0000<br>
From: "Professor L. Levine via Avodah" <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: "avodah@aishdas.org" <avodah@aishdas.org><br>
Subject: [Avodah] Showering During the 9 Days<br>
Message-ID: <1501090511329.50972@stevens.edu><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<br>
<br>
Please see<br>
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<a href="http://tinyurl.com/ycghuo2q" id="LPlnk302457" previewremoved="true">http://tinyurl.com/ycghuo2q</a>
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<a id="LPImageAnchor_15011369729210.6356889988065331" href="http://tinyurl.com/ycghuo2q" target="_blank" style="display: table-cell; text-align: center;"><img id="LPThumbnailImageID_15011369729210.9980597111497933" style="display: inline-block; max-width: 250px; max-height: 250px; height: 73px; width: 73px; border-width: 0px; vertical-align: bottom;" width="73" height="73" src="https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/494286688/Ohr-Somayach-Logo-150sq_bigger.jpg"></a></div>
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<a id="LPUrlAnchor_15011369729240.21465767437726835" href="http://tinyurl.com/ycghuo2q" target="_blank" style="text-decoration: none;">Showering During the Nine Days?! by Rabbi Yehuda Spitz</a></div>
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tinyurl.com</div>
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YL<br>
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Message: 6<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 13:34:24 -0400<br>
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>, avodah The General Discussion<br>
Area for Avodah <areivim@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Cc: Allan Engel <allan.engel@gmail.com><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
Message-ID: <733e7a55-282c-8e80-fbc3-010d0464f64e@sero.name><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="cp1255"; format="flowed"<br>
<br>
On 26/07/17 12:50, Micha Berger wrote:<br>
> I think you misrepresent the Rambam. The original is here<br>
> <<a href="http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/rambam/hakdamat-2.htm#3" id="LPlnk400099" previewremoved="true">http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/rambam/hakdamat-2.htm#3</a>> (scrolled
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<a id="LPUrlAnchor_15011369714510.2333273814572796" href="http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/mahshevt/rambam/hakdamat-2.htm#3" target="_blank" style="text-decoration: none;">הקדמת רמב"ם לפרק "חלק" / רבי משה בן מימון</a></div>
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www.daat.ac.il</div>
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הוי יודע, כי בעלי התורה נחלקו דעותיהם בטובה שתגיע לאדם בעשיית המצות שציונו בהם השם יתברך ע"י ...</div>
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> to the right place in the intro to Cheileq), but given that the list<br>
> STILL can't do Hebrew, here's a translation from Merkaz Moreshet haRambam<br>
> <<a href="https://www.mhcny.org/qt/1005.pdf" id="LPlnk280318" previewremoved="true">https://www.mhcny.org/qt/1005.pdf</a>> (paragraphing theirs). I do not know
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<a id="LPUrlAnchor_15011370324350.04858168457835399" href="https://www.mhcny.org/qt/1005.pdf" target="_blank" style="text-decoration: none;">Entire Intro to Perek Helek - Maimonides Heritage Center</a></div>
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www.mhcny.org</div>
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Maimonides Introduction to Perek Helek 3 world to come is the ultimate good or whether some other possibility is. Nor does one often find persons who distinguish ...</div>
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> how you can read the following and conclude anything but his insistence<br>
> that midrashic stories are NOT history, and that<br>
> 1- people who think otherwise and therefore believe nimna'os are<br>
> aniyei daas, yeish lehitzta'er aleihem lesikhlusam;<br>
> 2- people who think these stories are meant to be historical, realize<br>
> they can't be, and yi'agu al divrei chakhamim; and<br>
> 3- the wise few know that all they say about devarim hanimna'im were<br>
> said bederekh chidah umashal.<br>
<br>
On the contrary, I think you are misrepresenting him. Using your own <br>
translation, he explicitly criticises those (on both sides) who imagine <br>
that Chazal's words are *only ever* meant literally, and have no meaning <br>
*but* the literal, so that if one rejects the literal reading of any <br>
maamar Chazal one must reject it altogether, because there is nothing <br>
else. Given this false choice, the righteous fools accept the literal <br>
reading even if it poses terrible difficulties, while the wicked fools <br>
reject the maamar altogether, and therefore also its authors. The wise <br>
understand that there's a lot *more* going on in a maamar Chazal than <br>
just the surface reading, and therefore *if the context indicates* that <br>
the surface reading was not intended to be accepted one may reject it <br>
without rejecting the whole maamar, just as Chazal themselves did with <br>
pesukim.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,<br>
zev@sero.name be a brilliant year for us all<br>
<br>
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Message: 7<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 14:31:44 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name><br>
Cc: Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>,<br>
llevine@stevens.edu, Allan Engel <allan.engel@gmail.com><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
Message-ID: <20170726183144.GB19984@aishdas.org><br>
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On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 01:34:24PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:<br>
: On the contrary, I think you are misrepresenting him. Using your<br>
: own translation, he explicitly criticises those (on both sides) who<br>
: imagine that Chazal's words are *only ever* meant literally, and<br>
: have no meaning *but* the literal...<br>
<br>
The first kat are criticized for believing the literal version.<br>
Not for believing it to the exclusion of a deeper meaning, but for<br>
understand[ing] the teachings of the sages only in their literal<br>
sense, in spite of the fact that some of their teachings when taken<br>
literally, seem so fantastic and irrational that if one were to<br>
repeat them literally seem so fantastic and irrational that if one<br>
were to repeat them literally, even to the uneducated, let<br>
alone sophisticated scholars, their amazement would prompt<br>
them to ask how anyone in the world could believe such<br>
things true, much less edifying.<br>
Even the uneducation should know they're not literraly true. No? And<br>
he attacks them for<br>
expound[ing] the laws and the teachings of our sages in such a way<br>
that when the other peoples hear them they say that this little<br>
people is foolish and ignoble.<br>
<br>
"Yeish lahem dibah veharichuq min haseikhel..."<br>
<br>
When it comes to the 2nd group, yes, they could reach the same dismissive<br>
attitude whether the problem is their believing that Chazal taught us to<br>
believe the absurd, or that Chazal taught us stories rather than anything<br>
of depth.<br>
<br>
However, the Rambam doesn't criticize their assuming that the literal is<br>
silly. He criticizes their assuming that Chazal meant the literal and<br>
therefore that their teachings are silly.<br>
<br>
<br>
But the third kat, like the first, is more clearly about the need to<br>
sometimes abandon the litaral:<br>
The members of this group understa nd that the sages knew as clearly<br>
as we do the difference between the impossibility of the impossible<br>
and the existence of that which must exist. They know that the sages<br>
did not speak nonsense, and it is clear to them that the words of<br>
the sages contain both an obvious and a hidden meaning.<br>
<br>
If the literal is impossible or nonsense, which the Rambam believes is<br>
a meaningful category -- and not "anything is possible to G-d" -- then<br>
this third kat rejects it. To resume where I left off:<br>
Thus, whenever the sages spoke of things that seem impossible, they<br>
were employing the style of riddle and parable which is the method<br>
of truly great thinkers.<br>
<br>
And he adds further down:<br>
But if you belong to the third grou p, when you encounter<br>
a word of the sages which seems to conflict with reason, you<br>
will pause, consider it, and realize that this utterance must<br>
be a riddle or a parable.<br>
<br>
Unreasonable literal readings point to maamarei chazal that have<br>
only nimshal meaning, and the Rambam would not want us to believe the<br>
fantastic, irrational or unbelievable.<br>
<br>
Nor is the Rambam alone; RDE's Daas Torah has pages of sources about the<br>
historicity or ahistoricity of medrash. RDE posted a summary here years<br>
back.<br>
<br>
R/Prof Y Levine would shortly be pointing us to RSRH's position,<br>
if this didn't forestall him:<br>
<a href="http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/hirschAgadaHebrew.pdf" id="LPlnk89456" previewremoved="true">
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/faxes/hirschAgadaHebrew.pdf</a><br>
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<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Micha Berger Zion will be redeemed through justice,<br>
micha@aishdas.org and her returnees, through righteousness.<br>
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Message: 8<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 21:13:46 +0300<br>
From: elazar teitz via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] alma vs. almah<br>
Message-ID:<br>
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In a get,we go to extremes of spelling to avoid any possible<br>
misunderstanding, even if the correct reading and a possible misreading<br>
differ only in nikkud. That's why "v'dein" is written without the yud:<br>
with a yud could be misread as "v'din," so that the sentence would be<br>
misinterpreted as "the din is that you should have a get from me," rather<br>
than the true intent, "v'dein," meaning "this shall be your get from me."<br>
(Parenthetically, the same spelling was carried over to the k'suba,<br>
misleading many readers under the chuppa to pronounce it as "v'dan," rather<br>
than the correct "v'dein.") Likewise, the word indicating the right to<br>
remarry is written "l'hisnasva," with a hei, rather than the standard<br>
"l'isnasva" with an alef, lest it be misunderstood as two words, "la<br>
t'nasva," meaning "she should not remarry."<br>
<br>
If we are this concerned about mistaken readings even when the word<br>
is written correctly, certainly we should be concerned if a different word<br>
is written which actually changes the meaning, even if such was not the<br>
intent. Thus, I think that reading philosophical or theological meaning<br>
as a basis for the objection to the appearance of a hei in place of an<br>
alef is farfetched.<br>
<br>
EMT<br>
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Message: 9<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 15:10:29 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: elazar teitz <emteitz@gmail.com>, The Avodah Torah Discussion<br>
Group <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] alma vs. almah<br>
Message-ID: <20170726191029.GA11149@aishdas.org><br>
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On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 09:13:46PM +0300, elazar teitz via Avodah wrote:<br>
: In a get,we go to extremes of spelling to avoid any possible<br>
: misunderstanding, even if the correct reading and a possible misreading<br>
: differ only in nikkud. That's why "v'dein" is written without the yud...<br>
<br>
There are even long vavs in teirukhin, shevuqin, and peturin so that<br>
they aren't read as teirikhin (etc) as a theoretical statement. Which<br>
is beyond just haqpadah in spelling (AhS EhE 126:57(<br>
<br>
This came from AhS Yomi, I'm aware of the issues raised in the rest of<br>
the siman. Although, since I didn't bother giving more context, perhaps<br>
others overestimated my case.<br>
<br>
: Thus, I think that reading philosophical or theological meaning<br>
: as a basis for the objection to the appearance of a hei in place of an<br>
: alef is farfetched.<br>
<br>
As I said, I thought it might be.<br>
<br>
What got me started was that unlike the other cases, RYME (se'if 61)<br>
didn't sound so sure that leber'ias almah "toward the creation of the<br>
young lady" was a plausible misread. Perhaps in this context, "almah"<br>
(hei) would be read as being from olam; it is only "yoseif soveil leshon<br>
na'arah milashon olam". "Veyish makhshirin beshe'as hadechaq" as the<br>
Rama says.<br>
<br>
Harbei gedolim allow the gett beshe'as hadechaq when you can't get<br>
another, even when it's not a risk of igun.<br>
<br>
So, without context "almah" is only more likely to mean na'arah, and<br>
with context it's less likely. I therefore started thinking that maybe<br>
the only reason why halakhah considers the misread plausible enough to<br>
consider at all is because notzrim count from the date of a mythical<br>
virgin birth -- leberi'as almah.<br>
<br>
(Which is far from reading in philosophical or theological meaning.<br>
More like positing a din reflecting the metzi'us caused by social<br>
context.)<br>
<br>
But I am perfectly willing to accept the idea that while I find the<br>
notion pretty, it's too far of a stretch. I just wrote this long post<br>
to explain what I saw aethetically in it.<br>
<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Micha Berger Zion will be redeemed through justice,<br>
micha@aishdas.org and her returnees, through righteousness.<br>
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Message: 10<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 16:21:39 -0400<br>
From: Zev Sero via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org><br>
Cc: Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah@lists.aishdas.org>, Allan<br>
Engel <allan.engel@gmail.com><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
Message-ID: <24fa8670-990b-8d7a-57fd-9a5764b59d47@sero.name><br>
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On 26/07/17 14:31, Micha Berger wrote:<br>
> The first kat are criticized for believing the literal version.<br>
> Not for believing it to the exclusion of a deeper meaning,<br>
<br>
He explicitly says *yes* for believing it to the exclusion of a deeper <br>
meaning. It's right in his words.<br>
<br>
"They accept the teachings of the sages in their simple literal sense <br>
and do not think that these teachings contain any hidden meaning at all. <br>
[...] They, therefore, believe that the sages intended no more in their <br>
carefully emphatic and straightforward utterances than they themselves <br>
are able to understand with inadequate knowledge. They understand the <br>
teachings of the sages only in their literal sense".<br>
<br>
That's *why* they're so attached to the surface meaning that they can't <br>
let it go even when the context indicates otherwise -- because they're <br>
unaware there *is* any other meaning, so they think if they reject it <br>
they'd be rejecting the maamar itself ch"v, and they don't want to do <br>
that. The third group understand that there is more going on, and <br>
therefore it's acceptable, *when the context calls for it*, to say that <br>
a specific maamar *has* no surface meaning, and thus trying to make <br>
sense of its words as a straight narrative is futile.<br>
<br>
<br>
> If the literal is impossible or nonsense, which the Rambam believes is<br>
> a meaningful category -- and not "anything is possible to G-d" -- then<br>
> this third kat rejects it. <br>
<br>
Nonsense is nonsense; one cannot make sense of it. If a passage appears <br>
on its surface to be a mere word salad, and one is aware that it has <br>
deeper levels, then it's easy to conclude that it has no surface level <br>
at all. But if one is unaware of the possibility of deeper readings <br>
then one will strive to find sense on the surface and come up with all <br>
sorts of strange interpretations, because ones mind is imposing order on <br>
something that has none.<br>
<br>
"Unreasonable" does not mean "requires miracles". It is the very <br>
attitude that regards the supernatural as inherently unreasonable that <br>
I'm calling apikorsus.<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Zev Sero May 2017, with its *nine* days of Chanukah,<br>
zev@sero.name be a brilliant year for us all<br>
<br>
<br>
------------------------------<br>
<br>
Message: 11<br>
Date: Wed, 26 Jul 2017 16:49:18 -0400<br>
From: Micha Berger via Avodah <avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
To: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>, The Avodah Torah Discussion Group<br>
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org><br>
Cc: Allan Engel <allan.engel@gmail.com><br>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] The 93 Beit Yaakov Martyrs: A Modern Midrash<br>
Message-ID: <20170726204918.GA6946@aishdas.org><br>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii<br>
<br>
On Wed, Jul 26, 2017 at 04:21:39PM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:<br>
: He explicitly says *yes* for believing it to the exclusion of a<br>
: deeper meaning. It's right in his words.<br>
<br>
: "They accept the teachings of the sages in their simple literal<br>
: sense and do not think that these teachings contain any hidden<br>
: meaning at all. [...] They, therefore, believe that the sages<br>
: intended no more in their carefully emphatic and straightforward<br>
: utterances than they themselves are able to understand with<br>
: inadequate knowledge. They understand the teachings of the sages<br>
: only in their literal sense".<br>
<br>
And you skip everything he says about believing foolishness as<br>
irrelevant?<br>
<br>
Here's what you ellided, again:<br>
They believe that all sorts of impossible things must be. They hold<br>
such opinions because they have not understood science and are far<br>
from having acquired knowledge. They possess no perfection which<br>
would rouse them to insight from within, nor have they found anyone<br>
else to stimulate them to profounder understanding.<br>
<br>
But people who understood science, acquired knowledge, who posess<br>
the perfection which would rouse them to insight from within, or have<br>
somoene to stimulate them to profounder understanding wouldn't believe<br>
that "all sorts of impossible things must be".<br>
<br>
: That's *why* they're so attached to the surface meaning that they<br>
: can't let it go even when the context indicates otherwise...<br>
: The third group understand that there is more<br>
: going on, and therefore it's acceptable, *when the context calls for<br>
: it*, to say that a specific maamar *has* no surface meaning, and<br>
: thus trying to make sense of its words as a straight narrative is<br>
: futile.<br>
<br>
So you are agreeing that one SHOULD let go of surface meaning when context<br>
indicates that they should? That's the problem is not only a lack of nimshel<br>
meaning, but that they believe a mashal that is ahistoric? Then what are<br>
we in disagreement about?<br>
<br>
What then did you mean by, "He's *not* making some bold statement against<br>
medroshim-as-history."<br>
<br>
If the surface meaning is incomprehensible as a straight narrative,<br>
then what is left of medroshim as history.<br>
<br>
In any case, as I've been describing the Rambam, he is saying that<br>
chazal tell these stories for their nimshalim. Some of the stories may be<br>
historical, but that's irrelevant. And that's why Chazal are comfortable<br>
repeating stories that can't be true.<br>
<br>
Unlike your claim, more typical of more recent derakhim in machashavah,<br>
that since HQBH can do anything, it would be apiqursus to say that some<br>
story can't be true.<br>
<br>
And I think the difference is modal logic, and differences between<br>
meanings of "can't". Hashem has no limitations of koach to prevent<br>
Him from doing anything (the paradoxical and meaningless aside for the<br>
moment), but we know that some Divine Decisions are absurd and would<br>
never happen.<br>
<br>
At least, those of us not in the first kat do.<br>
<br>
...<br>
: "Unreasonable" does not mean "requires miracles". It is the very<br>
: attitude that regards the supernatural as inherently unreasonable<br>
: that I'm calling apikorsus.<br>
<br>
Thinking that HQBH wouldn't violate the hesteir Panim of galus isn't<br>
apiqursus. Whether or not either of us would choose to believe He actually<br>
did, such a belief is certainly mutar.<br>
<br>
And if someone does believe that, or believe that miracles only happen<br>
in some other limited rance of circumstances, and therefore does not<br>
believe that a given medrash could be historical, he is not an apiqoreis<br>
and is indeed in the Rambam's 3rd kat.<br>
<br>
For example, what if someone believes that only people who already are<br>
such steadfast maaminim and baalei bitachon that a given neis wouldn't<br>
surprise them or strike them out of the ordinatry at all would experience<br>
one. (Taken from the Sefornu or Ramban on the justice of "hikhbadti es<br>
leiv Par'oh ve'es leiv ha'am".) Then he could believe that Chanina ben<br>
Dosa bentched shabbos licht with vinegar, but not many other aggaditos.<br>
<br>
And according to the Rambam, no one really saw sheidim. Just as no navi<br>
really saw mal'akhim, leshitaso -- and of the two, he only believes<br>
mal'akhim even exist!<br>
<br>
-Micha<br>
<br>
-- <br>
Micha Berger Zion will be redeemed through justice,<br>
micha@aishdas.org and her returnees, through righteousness.<br>
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