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<div><span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);"> </span></div>
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<div class="PlainText" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);"><span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">On Sun, Apr 30, 2017 at 08:50:08PM +0000, Ben Bradley via Avodah wrote:</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: The gemara says that this smitten man must not even even have a</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: conversation through a partition with the object of his desire on pain of</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: YaVY...</span><br>
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<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">Yes, on the pain of yeihareig; but it's not technically YvAY because</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">there is no actual issur la'avor.</span><br>
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I don't understand you. If there was no issur then why would it be on pain of yeihareig? Where do you find a chiyuv of yeihareig execpt where there's an issur involved? That's why I'm suggesting that since it's on pain of yeihareig then we know there must
an issur la'avor so the point of the sugya is to work out what that is. </div>
<div class="PlainText" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0);">The only other possiblility, which you seem to be assuming, is that yeihareig here is a gezeira, not a d'oraisa, on which see below. <br>
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<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: Since when is conversation</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: hana'as issur arayos. The answer, which is surprising to us but causes</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: the gemara no problem is that , even sexual hana'a from a conversation</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: carries the din YvAY.</span><br>
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<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">I meant that as more than a quibble. Gilui arayos is an issur that</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">trumps personal survival. But here it's not a matter of encountering</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">a greater issur. It's not even hana's issur arayos, it's hana'ah from</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">hirhurim.</span></div>
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<div class="PlainText"><span style="font-size: 10pt;">From hirhurim? Chazal were gozer yeihareig on hirhurei aveira? If that were true we'd find the same din in a lot of other places. Which is why is seems to me we must be dealing with something else here. </span><br>
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<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">And much the same territory as your description of the 2nd MdA:</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: That's the first man d'amar. The second MdA , that we mean even a penuya,</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: causes the gemara problems because there's apparently no problem of</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: hana'a from a penuya, or at least certainly not involving YvAY and</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: certainly not from a conversation. So mai kulei hai?</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: </span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: The chiddush here is that we're even gozer YvAY on hana'a from a penuya</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">: due to societal considerations of bnos yisrael not being hefker etc.</span><br>
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<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">It's the same issur in Hilkhos De'os either way. The guy is doing nothing</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">assur on the arayos level; it's entirely abotu whether or not we feed the</span><br>
<span style="color: rgb(0, 111, 201);">downward character spiral.</span><br>
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Me'heicha teisi that we're dealing with Hilkhos De'os here? Where do you find a din of yeihareig in Hilchos De'os?</div>
<div class="PlainText">Rambam brings this din not in De'os but in Yesodei HaTorah in the context of mesiras nefesh al kiddush hashem and issur hana'a from aveira. He must be holding that we're dealing with issur and specfically with hana'as issur or it would
make no sense to this halacha where he does. </div>
<div class="PlainText">Your partially stated assumption is that this din in both man d'amrim is d'rabanan. Rambam strongly implies otherwise.</div>
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<div class="PlainText">Kol tuv</div>
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<div class="PlainText">Ben</div>
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