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Wed, 20 Jul 2016 Zev Sero, in reposne to wrote:<a
moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E"
href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org"></a>
<blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.50466.1469040544.1465.avodah-aishdas.org@lists.aishdas.org"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""><div class="moz-txt-sig"><div class="moz-txt-sig">To: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cantorwolberg@cox.net"><cantorwolberg@cox.net></a>, The Avodah Torah
Discussion Group <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org"><avodah@lists.aishdas.org></a>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Prophecy
Message-ID: <a moz-do-not-send="true" class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:578FC6D6.6050709@sero.name"><578FC6D6.6050709@sero.name></a>
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On 07/20/2016 10:19 AM, Cantor Wolberg via Avodah wrote:
</div></div></pre>
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>I find it odd that a gadol like Rambam would omit sources to back his
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>decisions, etc.
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">He saw no need for it. His goal was to write one simple, easy-to-read
work that anybody with sufficient intelligence could study and know the
whole Torah, without having to plow through the mishneh and gemara.
He had done all the work for the reader, and all the reader had to do was
trust him. If you didn't trust him then why were you bothering to read
it in the first place? It didn't occur to him at that point that he would
have to deal with challenges from other rabbis.</pre>
</blockquote>
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<p class="MsoNormal" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:
major-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-hansi-theme-font:
major-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"">The
Rambam, in his response
to the criticisms of R' Pinchas HaDayan, addressed this issue
explicitly,
citing Rebbi Yehuda HaNassi as his role model, and the Mishna
itself as declaring
it *improper,* in a halachic guidebook, to assign names to
finalized halacha (as R' Zev explained). In this fascinating
letter, he also adds some other considerations:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri
Light",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:major-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New
Roman";mso-hansi-theme-font:major-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times
New Roman"">Have
I not explicitly said at the beginning of my work that I only
composed it
because there are those who, due to the lack of ability, are
unable to plumb
the depths of the Talmud, and who cannot decipher from it that
which is
prohibited and permitted? And I elaborated upon this greatly.<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri
Light",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:major-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New
Roman";mso-hansi-theme-font:major-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times
New Roman"">As
to what you said about the naming the sages—I actually did list
the many names
of the sages, Tannaim and Amoraim, at the beginning of the work.
But in any
case...Geonim and other greats who have already preceded me,
have composed
works and decided halachos in individual areas both in Hebrew
and Arabic [without attaching names to the halachos]....<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:-4.5pt;
mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:.5in;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:
major-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-hansi-theme-font:
major-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"">And
you should also be
aware that I clearly stated, at the beginning of my work, that I
decided to
utilize the form of presentation and the language-style of the
Mishnah. ....* I
have merely embraced the approach of Rabbeynu Hakadosh.* He too
had done this,
prior to me. For every decision that he presented without
attaching an author's
name originated [not with him, but] with other sages. And those
other sages as
well were not the originators of those decisions, but [merely
stated how they
understood what they] obtained from the mouths of others, and
the others from still
others, back to Moshe Rabbeynu. And just as the Tannaim and
Amoraim did not
bother with endlessly attaching the names of all the sages from
the days of
Moshe Rabbeynu to their own, so too we have not been particular
about whether
we mention their names or not. What would be the purpose of
that? Have they not
explicitly stated in so many places, “Rebbi endorsed the words
of So-and-so
regarding issue A, and presented them anonymously; but he
endorsed the words of
So-and-so regarding issue B, and presented them anonymously"?
This openly
states that whatever Rebbi endorsed as final halacha, and
considered the proper
practice to follow, he stated without associating anyone’s name
with it! And in
so many places the Gemora says, “This anonymously-stated
halachah is an
individual’s opinion [and not the majority’s]”—Rabbeynu did not
mentioned the
names of any of them [--neither that of the individual whom the
halacha
followed, nor that of the majority]. <o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri
Light",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:major-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New
Roman";mso-hansi-theme-font:major-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times
New Roman"">*[Only]
when it came to matters that Rebbi did not consider settled, but
still
debatable, and about which he did not lean one way or the
other,* did he state
both opinions in the names of their proponents (“R. So-and-so
says this, and R.
So-and-so says that”) mentioning the names of those sages, or of
recently living
ones, from whom he heard those opinions--but [still] not of
their mentors or
mentors’-mentors' names. For at the time, many people still
followed one
opinion, and many still followed the opposing one. Suffice it to
say that he
[himself] told us explicitly why, in some of the mishnas, he
attached names:<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:1.0in;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri
Light",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:major-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New
Roman";mso-hansi-theme-font:major-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times
New Roman"">And
why do we mention the words of Shammai and Hillel only to negate
them [by
adding that the majority of sages disagreed with both and
decided
differently]?—to teach the following generations </span><span
style="font-size:
10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:major-latin;
mso-hansi-theme-font:major-latin">[that a person should not
stand on his words,
for the avos of the world did not stand on their words</span><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Calibri
Light",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:
major-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New
Roman";mso-hansi-theme-font:
major-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman"">].
And why do we mention
the dissenting words of individuals along with those of the
majority...??—So
that if a Beis Din will agree with the individual’s opinion and
rely upon
it....[R' Yehuda (ben El'ai) added:] And why do we mention the
words of the
individual together with those of the majority only to negate
them?—So that if
a person reports receiving a teaching other than that which was
accepted by the
majority....”<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri
Light",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:major-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New
Roman";mso-hansi-theme-font:major-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times
New Roman"">See
how explicit it is!—that it is <i>*improper*</i> to mention
anything but the finally decided-upon halacha alone, and it was
only necessary
to mention opposing opinions during those times that some
practiced one way,
and others practiced a different way, when some obtained the law
according to
one sage’s opinion, and some according to another sage’s
opinion. And since I
composed my work following the Mishna’s style, and the Talmud
already indicated
the final halacha in each case either expressly or implicitly
through the
general rules of p’sak, so that two valid practices no longer
exist, why should
I mention the name of someone whom the halacha does not follow,
or even the
name of the one whom the halacha does follow? That halacha is
not just a
made-up idea expressed by the individual mentioned in the
Mishna, such as
Abbaya or Rava, but [an interpretation of] the words of legions
from the mouths
of legions. And for this reason I chose not to facilitate the
rebellion of the <i>Minnim</i>,
who accuse us of basing ourselves upon the devised opinions of
individuals. No,
it is [a matter of what was obtained by] thousands and tens of
thousands from
the mouths of thousands and tens of thousands!<o:p></o:p></span></p>
<p class="MsoNormal"
style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;
margin-left:.5in;line-height:normal"><span
style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:
"Calibri
Light",sans-serif;mso-ascii-theme-font:major-latin;mso-fareast-font-family:"Times
New
Roman";mso-hansi-theme-font:major-latin;mso-bidi-font-family:"Times
New Roman"">It
was in this vein that at the beginning of my work I said,
“So-and-so and his
Beis Din obtained [the oral laws] from So-and-so and his Bes
Din"—to make it
known that the transmission was from a large number of people to
a large number
of people, and not from an individual to an individual. For this
reason my plan
and purpose was to state each halacha without any names
attached, to indicate
that it is the unanimous law, and to shun accommodating the
wreckage committed
by the <i>Minnim</i> of today who deny the entire Oral Law on
the basis of
seeing ideas stated in the name of this or that authority, and
who then imagine
that he was the only one who said it, and that it was his own
contrivance.</span></p>
<blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.50466.1469040544.1465.avodah-aishdas.org@lists.aishdas.org"
type="cite">
<blockquote type="cite" style="color: #000000;">
<pre wrap=""><span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>So if God will forgive those who have committed various sins thus
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>annulling a negative prophecy, why couldn?t the converse be possible
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>? namely, God condemning those who had been good and then turned to
<span class="moz-txt-citetags">> </span>sin, thus annulling positive prophecy?
</pre>
</blockquote>
<pre wrap="">Because He gave us this test.</pre>
</blockquote>
I.e. otherwise, the Rambam writes, there would be no way to
determine whether one is a prophet whose commandments must be
followed.<br>
<blockquote
cite="mid:mailman.50466.1469040544.1465.avodah-aishdas.org@lists.aishdas.org"
type="cite">
<pre wrap=""> He said if a navi says something will
happen and it doesn't, "That is a thing that Hashem didn't say, the
navi said it wickedly, do not fear him". And, through Bil`am, He
said "God is not a man that He should disappoint, or a human that He
should change His mind". However we know that He <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>does<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> change His
mind about bad decrees, both because we have numerous examples of Him
doing just that, and because two authentic nevi'im described Him as
one "Who <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>changes His mind<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> about bad things". Therefore His claim
that He doesn't must apply only to good prophecies.</pre>
</blockquote>
<br>
Zvi Lampel
<pre wrap="">
</pre>
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