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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2
face=Arial>From: Akiva Miller via Avodah <A
href="mailto:avodah@lists.aishdas.org">avodah@lists.aishdas.org</A><BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2
face=Arial><<< ... for men, this activity is actually physically
impossible without<BR>pleasure. A woman can be "kekarka" as Esther Hamalka
was but a man<BR>cannot. And for this reason, among others, the idea
of "objectifying men"<BR>is just ridiculous. >>>
[--TK]<BR><BR>>> I think we may be understanding the word "objectify" in
different ways.<BR><BR>Contrary to what some might think, not all men are
constantly obsessed with<BR>having sex. At any given point in time, a particular
man might have other<BR>priorities -- other activities that he'd rather do than
this one. But a<BR>husband cannot give higher priority to these activities over
Onah, just<BR>like he can't choose them over minyan, or other mitzvos. He must
be<BR>sensitive to his wife's needs and wants, and if he senses her mood, he
is<BR>under a chiyuv d'Oraisa to act accordingly....</FONT></DIV><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV><BR>But there is no flip side to Onah. The wife has no responsibility to
judge<BR>her husband's desires. In fact, even if she does realize that he is "in
the<BR>mood", there is no Chiyuv d'Oraisa for her to ignore her other desires
and<BR>respond to her husband's desires....<<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><BR>Akiva Miller<BR>(now at AkivaGMiller at gmail)</FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>>></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is a great irony in what you have written. You seem to think
that there is an inequality, a lack of reciprocity, in the mutual obligations of
men and women -- with women having all the power and men all the
obligation. It is ironic because the mitzva for men to be sensitive to
their wives' feelings derives from the /curse/ that was given to Chava!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Look at Rashi on Ber 3:16, "el ishech teshukasech -- your desire will be
towards your husband." Rashi says the curse is: You -- the woman --
will desire relations, but will not be so brazen as to request
it verbally. Rather, "he will rule over you" -- it is all from him --
the initiative is his -- and not from you. [end Rashi]</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To modern ears this Rashi might sound strange because the idea
that "women are not brazen" sounds so old-fashioned. Modesty has gone
out the window in modern society. But even the brazen women -- and certainly the
more refined and eidel women -- want to be wanted. By their nature, most
women do not want to be the ones taking the initiative or the ones pursuing the
men. For most women it is embarrassing to have to ask outright.
</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If you want an example of a woman in the Torah who was brazen even way back
then, look at Eishes Potiphar -- "Lie with me." The very fact that she
behaved this way shows what a hussy she was, but also, it shows that she was
utterly humiliated. Not only was Yosef not seduced by her wiles, but
even when she so lost her dignity as to ask him outright, he /still/
refused. It is no wonder she felt such a burning desire
for revenge. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>It was in order to mitigate the harshness of Chava's curse that Chazal
instituted the rule that men have to be sensitive to their wives' desires,
that a woman should not have to humiliate herself by spelling out what she
wants. It is a chessed that a man does for his wife, to mitigate the curse,
to somewhat level the playing field in which men have all the advantages!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I actually think this a wonderful example of Chazal's extraordinary
sensitivity to women. They acknowledge and partially correct an imbalance
that favors men at the expense of women, ever since Adam and Chava.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG>--Toby
Katz<BR>t613k@aol.com</STRONG></FONT><FONT lang=0 color=#ffffff size=2
face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><BR><STRONG>..</STRONG></FONT><FONT
lang=0 color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><BR><STRONG>=============</STRONG><BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
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