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<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2
face=Arial>From: Chana Luntz via Avodah
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
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As I have written before, what I find intensely frustrating about this
is<BR>that RYBS's invocation of tan du appears to itself involve a form
of<BR>tampering with the chazakos and by implication the denial of the
perfection<BR>and truthfulness of chachmei chazal that is then claimed to be
kefira.<BR><BR>The gemora in discussing tan du is very clear - both in Yevamos
118b and<BR>Kesuvos 75a: a woman in a tan du marriage commits adultery -
"kulan<BR>mezanos"! - THAT is the chazaka from Chazal regarding the nature of
women. <BR><BR>[snip]<BR>But you can't get away from the fact that Chazal set
this up as a chazaka.<BR>And if you take these chazakos in the way that RYBS
says to do, then there<BR>are inevitable conclusions: A Beis Din faced with
what can now clearly be<BR>seen as a tan du marriage HAS to assume adultery as
a consequence - that<BR>being the chazaka. <BR>[snip] Surely it is
obligatory on any Rabbi who agrees to be<BR>mesader kiddushin and on any
shadchanim and eidim to investigate very<BR>carefully that this marriage is
not of the tan du nature?<BR><BR>[snip] But if it is an inevitable chazaka
that a woman in a tan du marriage will<BR>commit adultery, then there is only
one safek in relation to a serious issur<BR>d'orisa - in which case must it
not be the responsibility of all those who<BR>enable such a marriage to occur
to make sure that it is not a tan du<BR>marriage and they are not enabling
such adultery to take place?</FONT></FONT></BLOCKQUOTE>
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<DIV>There is brilliant yet convoluted logic behind this post. I hesitate
to tangle with someone like R'n CL who is so erudite, yet I truly believe she
has misunderstood this Gemara. Yes, a woman in a loveless marriage is much
more tempted to commit adultery, given the right set of circumstances, but
it is certainly not inevitable. Nor is it correct to deduce that a rav must
make sure, before he marries a couple, that the woman is not entering a loveless
marriage! He doesn't have to creep into her heart and mind before
conducting the wedding, doesn't have to fathom the depths of her motives in
marrying this man. There are so many motives, so many emotions, how could
you ever fathom them all?</DIV>
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<DIV>I think "kulan mezanos" refers to all women, and it means all women
can be seduced, though obviously it will be easier to seduce a woman who does
not love her husband. All women potentially can be seduced. IIRC
Beruria the wife of R' Meir -- and you can't claim that was a "tan duu
marriage"! -- thought she was an exception to this rule about human nature, or
feminine nature. And found out she was wrong! Even she, a brilliant
and pious woman married to a great man, could be seduced.</DIV>
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<DIV>Without the Gemara most of us would assume that men are more likely to be
unfaithful than women, and I do think that is true. I don't know how to
square what we see before us -- that men cheat more than women do -- with what
the Gemara says. In any case in Torah homes fidelity between husbands
and wives is the norm, Baruch Hashem. All those fences -- laws of
yichud, negiah, tznius and so on -- really do protect us.</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT lang=0 color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><B>--Toby Katz<BR>t613k@aol.com</FONT><FONT lang=0 color=#ffffff
size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><BR>..</FONT><FONT lang=0
color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><BR>=============</B><BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV></FONT></DIV>
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