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<DIV><BR>R. Ben Waxman wrote:<BR><BR><BR>>Therefore the creation of the State
is, in of itself, a Kiddush Hashem.<BR>>Rav Soloveitch tz"l wrote about
this point in Kol Dodi Dofek and in his<BR>>drashot for the Kinot, as did Rav
Zvi Yehuda Kook tz"l.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RYL wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>> We all know that there were great Torah scholars who disagreed
with <BR>>> the assertion that " the creation of the State is, in of
itself, a <BR>>> Kiddush Hashem." <BR><BR></DIV></FONT></FONT>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>>></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I will have to re-read Kol Dodi Dofek because I don't remember such a
forthright quote -- "The creation of the State is, in of itself, a Kiddush
Hashem." But in any case it isn't exactly an either-or
question.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Medinah -- the secular socialist Russian government of Israel -- is
hardly a kiddush Hashem. Indeed it arouses waves of hatred from the goyim
all over the world, on a daily basis.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RBW also wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>....The first is from Yoma 86:A, Rashi, B'Amor Lehem: "Evil comes
to chassidim and chachamim because "They desecrated My Holy name." How did they
desecrate (God's name)? In those places to where they were exiled, the non-Jews
say "These are the people of God" and He can't redeem them. Conclusion: God's
name has been desecrated." End quote.<<</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The establishment of a government that is hated and vilified by the whole
world is not, it would seem, a kiddush Hashem. Plus the fact that the
country is under constant military threat and cannot, apparently, provide
security to its inhabitants, also would not seem to be a kiddush Hashem.
But I think these facts -- the constant physical attacks, the world-wide moral
opprobrium -- are the cosmic result of the fact that the Medinah is determinedly
secular and consciously rejects Torah as a guiding principle. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>HOWEVER, on the other side, RBW's Rashi quote does have a bearing on the
current situation in Eretz Yisrael.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is no denying that the flourishing of Eretz Yisrael, after two
thousand years of desolation, is miraculous. The continued existence
of the country, despite the constant waves of physical and diplomatic
attacks, is also miraculous. And the fact that all Jews can go and live in
Eretz Yisrael, and that millions actually do live there, is also a huge
miracle.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I said there is no denying the miraculous aspects and yet I am aware that
the Satmar Rebbe did deny it. He admitted that there was a
supernatural aspect to Israel's recent history but ascribed the miracles to the
Satan, blinding our eyes. He never joined Agudas Yisrael, the world-wide
umbrella organization for all Orthodox Jews, because he was on one side and all
the other gedolim in the world were on the other side. All the others
rejected the ideology of secular Zionism while gratefully acknowledging chasdei
Hashem in allowing the Land to be built up, allowing the Torah communities
to grow and flourish, allowing millions of Jews to live in our ancient
homeland. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The Lubavitcher Rebbe also never joined the Agudah -- I refer not to the
Israeli political party but to the world-wide umbrella organization. He
had other reasons, perhaps for another time. I think he wanted Chabad to
be THE world-wide organization, he did not want it to be one of many
competing Orthodox groups and derachim. But he agreed with the basic ideology of
the Agudah vis-a-vis the state of Israel -- the nuanced view of ohr
vechoshech. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And so did the Yekkes, very much so! In fact they were instrumental
in founding and guiding the Agudah, for decades! Their attitude towards
Israel after the founding of the Medinah and the beginning of kibbutz galuyos
was very much the same as the whole rest of the Agudah -- grateful
acknowledgment of the positive, hakaras hatov to the Ribono Shel Olam,
opposition to the negative, working to improve the moral status of Eretz
Yisrael, e.g., when it came to forced autopsies (B'H the charedim won that
bitterly fought battle), giyus banos and other issues. But the Yekkes in
Israel do vote, do participate in running the country, do daven at the kosel
(unlike the Satmar and Neturei Karta), do thank Hashem for protecting Eretz
Yisrael and daven for continued Divine protection. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RYL considers himself the premier acolyte of RSRH but he and I have some
fundamental disagreements about what the Hirschian legacy really is.<BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT><BR><STRONG><FONT color=#0000ff>--Toby
Katz<BR></FONT><FONT color=#0000ff>t613k@aol.com</FONT></STRONG><FONT lang=0
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PTSIZE="10"><BR><STRONG>..</STRONG></FONT><FONT lang=0 color=#0000ff size=2
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PTSIZE="10"><BR><STRONG>=============</STRONG><BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
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