<div dir="ltr">Don't we learn the same thing from the story of David & Naval. Naval had his own people to guard/herd/ranch his flocks. David and his followers (the meforshim describes them as worse) guard his flock without being hired and then confront Naval for payment that he is due. They were ready to kill Naval over this.<div>
<br></div><div>Saul </div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">On Mon, Apr 28, 2014 at 6:49 AM, Eli Turkel <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:eliturkel@gmail.com" target="_blank">eliturkel@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br>
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex"><div dir="ltr">In a shiur I recently gave I received a great negative response (to put it mildly) from the audience - mainly American olim. I mention this because the halacha seems to go against the grain of American thought.<div>
<br></div><div>1 "Yored Le-toch Sadeh Chavero She-lo Be-reshut"</div><div>There are 2 situations</div><div>(a) someone plants something in my garden that I dont want or dyes my white shirt blue while I wear white shirts - the gardener or dyer is entitled to his expenses which according to some including his labor at some minimum level</div>
<div><br></div><div>Why should he be entitled to anything? He comes into my property illegall;y, does an activity that</div><div>increases the value in a way that I dont want and then has the cutzpah to ask for expenses.</div>
<div>Throw the guy in jail.</div><div><br></div><div>(b) I am fully happy with what he did - he is entitled to complete payment for his work -</div><div>Why? I have my own gardener or dyer who always does my work for job. Wjy should a stranger be able to "steal" the work from him? Sounds like any gardener who doesnt have enough jobs should just go into yards and cut mow the lawn or remove the snow without permission and then demand full compensation.</div>
<div><br></div><div>2. Ze Ne-heneh ve-ze lo chaser </div><div>I am away from home for the summer and obviously just leave it empty while I am gone (ie I dont rent it)</div><div>Someone picks the lock and moves in for those months without causing any damage and makes sure all bills are paid. I am not entitled to any rent and it seems not ethical to throw him out.</div>
<div>The commentaries on SA even ask why the owner cant be forced to let in someone - kofim al midat sdom - and answer that since a person has a right to demand rent then even when he doesnt rent it out he cant be forced to rent it.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Again throw the intruder in jail</div><div><br></div><div>American feeling is that my home is my fiefdom and I can do whatever is necessary to stop people from entering even though I dont live on the premises. Even havent guns to shoot or trapdoors against possible intruders. In a similar case R. Zilberstein (and seemingly Rav Chaim Kanevsky) paskened that this is indeed allowed according to halacha. After several attacks on their position they admitted that at the least one needs to put up a sign stating that intruders are liable to be shot without notice (originally Rav Zilberstein felt that the prohibition to steal is enough of a sign). Again many others disagreed strongly including Rav Bleich in Tradition.</div>
<div><br></div><div>Any explanations of the 2 sugyot are appreciated.<span class="HOEnZb"><font color="#888888"><br clear="all"><div><br></div>-- <br><div dir="ltr"><font color="#000099" face="'comic sans ms', sans-serif">Eli Turkel</font></div>
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