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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><<</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>This of course also raises the question about the extent to which<br>Ashkenazim actually follow the Rema. On the Sephardi side, Rav Ovadiah,<br>a big proponent of following the Shulchan Aruch (Maran), claimed that<br>there were only three exceptions where the minhag is against Maran which<br>may be followed, but Sephardi poskim less of the Maran is the mara d'asra<br>school argue for a number more.>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I think I may have been mistaken about the “three” exceptions. In his klalei Shulchan Aruch (at the back of Yechave Da’at) number 5 what ROY actually states is that if there is a minhag from before that is against the psak of Maran we do like the minhag even though the minhag is against what Maran writes in the Shulchan Aruch. He then gives three citations to Yabiat Omer – two of which deal with avelus customs (in one case only in Yerushalayim and dealing with tearing kriya on chol hamoed). Given his usual comprehensiveness, I might have jumped to conclusions that weren’t warranted – because there are definitely others of this nature (even in Yabiat Omer). But still not a huge number by any means.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Then RET wrote:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>First there are loads of cases where the nosei keim (MA, Taz, Schach etc). disagree with the Ramah. </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Yes, I agree, that is my point, nobody but nobody discussing Ashkenazi halacha would start of their discussion, as ROY does of sephardi psak, “kablanu hora’as Rema afilu meah achronim cholkim alav...” It’s just not the mindset at all. The two traditions have two very different approaches. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>>I would venture that in most such cases the final halacha is machloket.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sometimes, and often it would seem the Rema is roundly rejected in favour of one of the others.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>BTW can Chana tell us the 3 cases that are exceptions according to ROY. Though I suspect there are more. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>See above, I think you are right about there being more (although there are numbers of historic minhagim that he roundly condemns based on the psak of Maran, that is the objection of numerous other Sephardi poskim more wedded to the minhagim of their ancestral homelands). <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>>In any cases there are cases where ROY uses the Ramah at least as one additional factor in a kulah. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Yes but he doesn’t regard that as going against Maran. Against Maran means when there are no other factors that mitigate the situation – because were there to be, maybe even Maran might have agreed in that case. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'>One famous case is bishul akum. When one goes to a restaurant where the owner/cook is a nonJew but with a hasgacha almost always the masgiach lights the fire as is the halacha according to the Ramah. This means that many sephardim violate the halacha. ROY finds a heter based in part on the Ramah against the Mechaber (note other sefardi poskim are machmir)<br clear=all></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Agreed, and he has numbers of other rulings like this, but he does not regard that as going against Maran. This is also not necessarily a case of l’chatchila, but bidieved, ie what it is mutar to do in such circumstances when they already exist. You might disagree with the characterisation of l’chatchila and bideved, but given his parameters, ROY does not regard that as against Maran.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Note however that there is another set of exceptions (in klal 4 of his klalei Shulchan Aruch) that “anyway in a place where it was hidden from Maran the words of the Rishonim there is to say taht if he had heard them he would have retracted, and there is to posken like the words of the Rishonim even l’hakel”.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That is, for example, if there is a Meiri that Maran could never have seen or we know did never see, then that Meiri can be used to trump Maran. This of course is the exact opposite of the view that since such rishonim fell out of the tradition, they are less authoritative, because they were not subject to the review of their peers and of klal yisrael and should be regarded as a less authoritative part of the mesorah.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#000099'>Eli Turkel</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Chana<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>