<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN">
<HTML><HEAD>
<META content="text/html; charset=US-ASCII" http-equiv=Content-Type>
<META name=GENERATOR content="MSHTML 11.00.9600.16476"></HEAD>
<BODY id=role_body style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: Arial; COLOR: #000000"
bottomMargin=7 leftMargin=7 rightMargin=7 topMargin=7><FONT id=role_document
color=#000000 size=2 face=Arial>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10">
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2
face=Arial>From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name><BR>Subject: Doresh el hameisim
[was: Why does Moshe use logical arguments when<BR> davening to
save Bnei Yisrael? ]<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2
face=Arial></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2
face=Arial>>>It's not as if this is some strange and unique "agada"; it's
pretty basic<BR>to Jewish practise, going back at least to Kalev, that we do ask
the dead to<BR>pray for us. The Zohar says that when the world needs rain,
we take a sefer<BR>torah to the cemetery to inform the dead that we need help,
and they then go<BR>to Chevron to inform the Avot, and they all pray for us and
it rains.<BR>("Doresh el hameisim" doesn't mean people who have died, it means
resha'im,<BR>who are "meisim" even while they're breathing.) <<<BR><BR>--
<BR>Zev
Sero
<BR>zev@sero.name <BR> <BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I am still in the year of aveilus for my mother, Sheindel bas Moshe Yechiel
a'h, whom I miss very much, and I sometimes talk to her. I say, "Mommy,
did you hear? Mazal tov! Shai is married three months already and
Yidel has a new grandson and Heshy has a new granddaughter. Mommy, Naomi
and Shifra need shidduchim, is there any way you can pull some strings up
there? Mommy, I sold another copy of your book today and the lady who
bought a copy last week came to my Chumash shiur today and told me she loves
your book! Mommy, where are you now exactly?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Before my son's wedding three months ago I went to Har Hamenuchos and left
two wedding invitations there, one on my father's kever and one on my
mother's. I assumed they would both come even if I only gave one of
them an invitation, but I didn't want to show any favoritism towards one over
the other. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't know what it means "doresh el hameisim" -- I don't know what
halachos apply, or what normative hashkafa is. I don't know for sure that
my mother hears me when I talk to her. I can't believe that it is assur
for me to talk to her though. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>But today a friend asked me which perakim of Tehillim to say at a kever and
I looked it up for her in the book *Mourning in Halacha* by R' Chaim Binyamin
Goldberg. (For the record he says 33, 16, 17, 72, 91,104, and 130
and spell out the person's name in 119.) On pg 395 I found this:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--quote--</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When one prays at the graves of one's parents, forefathers, and relatives,
or at other graves, one should not direct their prayers to the deceased, nor
request anything from them. One should pray only to the Holy One, Blessed
is He. One should not direct one's efforts towards the deceased, so that
one will not be in the category of those who seek favors from the dead (doresh
el hameisim). When one prays at the graves of tzaddikim, one should
request of Hashem, Blessed is He, that He have mercy upon oneself through the
merit of the righteous ones who dwell in the dust.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--end quote--</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There is a footnote giving as the source Ba'er Heitev
581:::17. But the footnote then goes on:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--quote--</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, Gesher Hachaim writes: "But many permit addressing the
deceased and saying to him: 'Be our representative and pray for us to Hashem,
Blessed is He.' Since one asks the deceased to pray to Hashem, Blessed is
He, this is not considered directing one's efforts towards the deceased
himself. It is like asking a living tzaddik to pray for one."
And see Responsa Maharam Shick (Orach Chaim 293).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>--end quote--</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To be honest until now I thought that doresh el hameisim really meant
trying to find out the future or magically change the future by
consulting the dead in some way -- like reading the Rebbe's letters as your
daily horoscope. But now I find that I have no clarity on the issue at
all.</DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG>--Toby
Katz</STRONG></FONT><FONT lang=0 color=#ffffff size=2 face=Arial
FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><BR><STRONG>..</STRONG></FONT><FONT lang=0
color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><BR><STRONG>=============</STRONG><BR><BR><BR>-------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT></DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE
style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: blue 2px solid"><FONT
lang=0 color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF" PTSIZE="10"><FONT
style="BACKGROUND-COLOR: transparent" color=#000000 size=2
face=Arial><BR></FONT> </BLOCKQUOTE></FONT></DIV></FONT></BODY></HTML>