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<font size=3>At 07:46 PM 11/10/2013, Lisa Liel wrote:<br><br>
<blockquote type=cite class=cite cite="">On 11/10/2013 11:25 AM, Zev Sero
wrote:<br><br>
> I protest against this observation. It's a chutzpah to Yaakov
Avinu, <br>
> who was a Merkavah to Hashem, who was so connected to Hashem that he
<br>
> never had a keri in his life, to imply that he had become megusham
<br>
> like this. The Avos were not normal people, and it is wrong to
<br>
> portray them like that.<br><br>
That's one view. Another view is that on at least some level, they
<br>
*were* normal people, albeit spiritually superior. And yet another
view <br>
is that jokes are jokes, and that one was kind of cute.</blockquote><br>
Your observation is correct. This was meant at least in part
as a joke! I actually heard it from a choshava Holocaust survivor
many years ago. <br><br>
Regarding the Avos being "normal people," the following
is from the new translation of the commentary of Rav Samson Raphael
Hirsch on Bereishis 12: 10 - 13. He is discussing the question of how
Avraham could leave EY and put Sarah in danger. <br><br>
RSRH quotes the Ramban “Our father Avraham inadvertently committed<br>
a grave sin by placing his virtuous wife before a stumbling block<br>
of iniquity because of his fear of being killed . . . His leaving the
Land,<br>
about which he had been commanded, because of the famine was another<br>
sin he committed” nevertheless, none of this would perplex us.<br><br>
The Torah does not seek to portray our great men<br>
as perfectly ideal figures; it deifies no man. It says of no one: “Here
you<br>
have the ideal; in this man the Divine assumes human form!” It does<br>
not set before us the life of any one person as the model from which<br>
we might learn what is good and right, what we must do and what we<br>
must refrain from doing. When the Torah wishes to put before us a<br>
model to emulate, it does not present a man, who is born of dust.<br>
Rather, God presents Himself as the model, saying: “Look upon Me!<br>
Emulate Me! Walk in My ways!” We are never to say: “This must be<br>
good and right, because so-and-so did it.” The Torah is not an
“anthology<br>
of good deeds.” It relates events not because they are necessarily<br>
worthy of emulation, but <i>because they took place</i>.<br><br>
The Torah does not hide from us the faults, errors, and weaknesses<br>
of our great men, and this is precisely what gives its stories
credibility.<br>
The knowledge given us of their faults and weaknesses does not
detract<br>
from the stature of our great men; on the contrary, it adds to their<br>
stature and makes their life stories even more instructive. Had they<br>
been portrayed to us as shining models of perfection, flawless and<br>
unblemished, we would have assumed that they had been endowed<br>
with a higher nature, not given to us to attain. Had they been
portrayed<br>
free of passions and inner conflicts, their virtues would have
seemed<br>
to us as merely the consequence of their loftier nature, not
acquired<br>
by personal merit, and certainly no model we could ever hope to<br>
emulate. <br><br>
Let us learn from our great teachers of Torah among whom the<br>
Ramban certainly is one of the most outstanding that we must never<br>
attempt to whitewash the spiritual and moral heroes of our past.
They<br>
do not need our apologetics, nor would they tolerate such attempts
on<br>
our part. Emes, truth, is the seal of our Torah, and truthfulness is
the<br>
guiding principle of the Torah’s great teachers and commentators.<br>
<hr>
In light of this, I have to wonder why some think that all
"negatives" about our predecessors should be suppressed. What I
am talking about is the tendency of some to go so far as to deny that
certain things took place in the past if they do not jive with our
present view of what the religious world should look like. As I
have quipped more than once, "There are Holocaust deniers and there
are Orthodox deniers." <br><br>
YL<br>
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