<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 12pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000">
<DIV>I think that everyone is indeed focusing on the correct passage: "A
person should not say 'I have no desire for pork, or to wear shatnez'..."
The Rambam in the Shemona Perakim Chapter 6 clarifies that this only applies to
the chukim, but not to the rational commandments. (Actually, he states
that this commandments should not be referred to as 'sichliyos', but that is not
relevant to our topic.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, I think that it is easy to take the Rambam's words too concretely
here. I was inspired by the words of Rabbi Aaron Lichtenstein's words on
this topic: ("By His Light, pp. 57-59")</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px" dir=ltr>
<DIV><FONT face=Garamond>Does this mean that we should all be burning with a
lust for bacon and ham, but simply be restrained because it says in the
Shulchan Aruch that you shouldn't eat it? Is it really an ideal that we should
always pit ourselves against G-d and then let G-d win, or pit, if you will,
the biological part of ourselves against our moral and spiritual selves?
Should we encourage this sort of constant conflict? I find it inconceivable
that this is the way we are supposed to live.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Garamond></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Garamond>Ultimately, the ideal for a person should be that, if
the Shulchan Aruch says don't eat ham, then I should feel revulsion for ham.
But the question is: What is the basis of that revulsion? If a person feels
revulsion towards shrimp or lobster because of some aesthetic consideration
therefore he doesn't eat it, then his not eating it is simply a part of the
aesthete in him. However, if a person feels that on aesthetic grounds he could
eat it, but now he has reached a point where his revulsion is due to the fact
that G-d has forbidden it – how can I want something that G-d forbids? - then
he has reached a level for which a person should strive.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Garamond></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Garamond>If one keeps mitzvot because they happen to coincide
with his instincts and intuitions, then it is all part of self-fulfillment and
not part of avodat Hashem. Avodat Hashem means to serve G-d for His sake. But
once you identify with what G-d wants, you can then bring your own
self-fulfillment to be part of your avodat Hashem. Kant believed that a person
must always act against his inclination, but we do not subscribe to this
position. Judaism does not want a person to feel like a shmatte(rag) all his
life, constantly fighting himself, as if the whole of spiritual existence is
to be realized through inner tension and struggle.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Garamond></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=Garamond>Certainly, it is both psychologically and religiously
beneficial for a person to find happiness and self-fulfillment in what he
does. But we grant this on one condition: that the content and direction of
that which makes you feel fulfilled did not start with you. It started with
G-d, and through a process which admittedly is difficult, you have gradually
been able to shape your own inner spiritual being in such a way that now there
is consonance between what G-d wants and what you
want...</FONT></DIV></BLOCKQUOTE>
<DIV>--</DIV>
<DIV>Nachum Klafter, MD </DIV>
<DIV>נחום בנימין קלאפטער</DIV>
<DIV>7502 State Road, Suite 2280</DIV>
<DIV>Cincinnati, OH 45255</DIV>
<DIV>(513)474-8900 FAX(513)233-6693</DIV>
<DIV>doctorklafter@cinci.rr.com</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-----Original Message----- </DIV>
<DIV>From: avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org </DIV>
<DIV>Sent: Friday, August 09, 2013 1:43 PM </DIV>
<DIV>To: avodah@lists.aishdas.org </DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Avodah Digest, Vol 31, Issue 143 </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Send Avodah mailing list submissions to</DIV>
<DIV>avodah@lists.aishdas.org</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit</DIV>
<DIV>http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org</DIV>
<DIV>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to</DIV>
<DIV>avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>You can reach the person managing the list at</DIV>
<DIV>avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific</DIV>
<DIV>than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>A list of common acronyms is available at</DIV>
<DIV>
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi</DIV>
<DIV>(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Today's Topics:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> 1. Re: Synthetic Meat (Kenneth Miller)</DIV>
<DIV> 2. Synthetic Meat (Richard Wolberg)</DIV>
<DIV> 3. Re: Synthetic Meat (Ben Waxman)</DIV>
<DIV> 4. Must we agree with the Torah?
(shalomyitz@comcast.net)</DIV>
<DIV> 5. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Micha Berger)</DIV>
<DIV> 6. Synthetic Meat (cantorwolberg@cox.net)</DIV>
<DIV> 7. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Lisa Liel)</DIV>
<DIV> 8. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Zev Sero)</DIV>
<DIV> 9. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Lisa Liel)</DIV>
<DIV> 10. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Zev Sero)</DIV>
<DIV> 11. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Lisa Liel)</DIV>
<DIV> 12. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Lisa Liel)</DIV>
<DIV> 13. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Zev Sero)</DIV>
<DIV> 14. Re: on orthopraxy (Micha Berger)</DIV>
<DIV> 15. Re: Must we agree with the Torah? (Micha Berger)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>----------------------------------------------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 1</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Wed, 7 Aug 2013 00:24:40 GMT</DIV>
<DIV>From: "Kenneth Miller" <kennethgmiller@juno.com></DIV>
<DIV>To: avodah@lists.aishdas.org</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Synthetic Meat</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <20130806.202440.2795.0@webmail06.vgs.untd.com></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Just to clarify this layman's understanding of some comments made by
others:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>R' Zev Sero wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> A BP is meat. This is a sort of fungus. If we were to scan
a</DIV>
<DIV>> piece of bacon down to the molecular level and then synthesize</DIV>
<DIV>> a molecule-for-molecule copy using raw materials gathered from</DIV>
<DIV>> mineral sources, it would surely be kosher and parev, and have</DIV>
<DIV>> no connection to a BP.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>R' Nachum Binyamin Klafter, MD wrote:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> The synthetic meat was never a cow and does not resemble meat</DIV>
<DIV>> in any manner. Synthetic meat looks like white pieces of</DIV>
<DIV>> tofu. There's no blood in it. It doesn't not resemble real</DIV>
<DIV>> meat in any way. The meat of a ben paku'ah looks just like</DIV>
<DIV>> veal. But more fundamentally, the sages did not make the</DIV>
<DIV>> gezeira of ben paku'ah on synthetic meat. They made the</DIV>
<DIV>> gezeira on a fetal calf.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To those who fear that this synthetic meat is similar to real meat, I ask
them to consider: Not only does it lack blood (as RNBK wrote) but it also lacks
fat, veins, cartilage, and the like. Or so I would imagine, based on the idea
that the culture began with some sort of muscle cell. Even if it began with a
stem cell, I suspect that it would then grow into a messy mass of muscle
cells, and not a nicely grained steak.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Akiva Miller</DIV>
<DIV>____________________________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>One Weird Trick</DIV>
<DIV>Could add $1,000s to Your Social Security Checks! See if you
Qualify…</DIV>
<DIV>http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/520193f37758a13f30b38st02vuc</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 2</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Tue, 6 Aug 2013 22:15:11 -0400</DIV>
<DIV>From: Richard Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net></DIV>
<DIV>To: "avodah@lists.aishdas.org" <avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: [Avodah] Synthetic Meat</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <427446A7-DF6C-4B2C-9885-271FC8F9F311@cox.net></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Wouldn't this be just as "bad" as poultry in terms of resembling
meat,</DIV>
<DIV>and thus subject to an issur de-rabanan?</DIV>
<DIV>Why would it be? We had the same thing with beef fry when it first came out
reassembling bacon. Or any of the synthetic hamburgers. There is no prohibition
with them. So why should there be an issur with the synthetic meat?</DIV>
<DIV>Sent from my iPhone</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 3</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Wed, 07 Aug 2013 05:36:00 +0300</DIV>
<DIV>From: Ben Waxman <ben1456@zahav.net.il></DIV>
<DIV>To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Synthetic Meat</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <5201B290.9080104@zahav.net.il></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Hence at the taste test, the testers basically said that the "meat" was
</DIV>
<DIV>awful.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ben</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On 8/7/2013 3:24 AM, Kenneth Miller wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> To those who fear that this synthetic meat is similar to real meat, I
ask them to consider: Not only does it lack blood (as RNBK wrote) but it also
lacks fat, veins, cartilage, and the like.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 4</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 16:32:19 +0000 (UTC)</DIV>
<DIV>From: shalomyitz@comcast.net</DIV>
<DIV>To: avodah@lists.aishdas.org</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: [Avodah] Must we agree with the Torah?</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID:</DIV>
<DIV><1826058700.1916066.1375979539138.JavaMail.root@sz0120a.emeryville.ca.mail.comcast.net></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>OK. I deliberately made my subject header provocative... Of course we have
</DIV>
<DIV>to agree with the Torah in the sense that we have to obey the Torah.
However, </DIV>
<DIV>I want to know if we have to be happy about everything that HaShem commands
</DIV>
<DIV>us (or, at least try to). I may wish that I could eat bacon ; obviously I
can't do it, but </DIV>
<DIV>is it a problem if I want to and wish the Torah made bacon kosher? </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It seems to me that we are at least obligated to accept that HaShem has
some reason </DIV>
<DIV>for all of His mitzvot -- but that doesn't necessarily imply that we can
understand those </DIV>
<DIV>reasons and so it may be that from our perspective we would want to do
something that </DIV>
<DIV>He tells us we can't/shouldn't. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I'd appreciate your thoughts and especially sources ... </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-------------- next part --------------</DIV>
<DIV>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...</DIV>
<DIV>URL:
<http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130808/faa9d5d9/attachment-0001.htm></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 5</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 16:51:23 -0400</DIV>
<DIV>From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Must we agree with the Torah?</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <20130808205123.GA19362@aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Thu, Aug 08, 2013 at 04:32:19PM +0000, shalomyitz@comcast.net
wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>: I want to know if we have to be happy about everything that HaShem
commands </DIV>
<DIV>: us (or, at least try to)...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RMYG and I discussed this in Jun 2010</DIV>
<DIV><http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/getindex.cgi?section=L#LO%20SACHMOD></DIV>
<DIV>and I'm pretty sure we've had other iterations.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RMYG opened asking about lo sachmod eishes rei'ekha:</DIV>
<DIV>> Ibn Ezra famously gives a parable of a villager seeing a princess,
and</DIV>
<DIV>> it not even occurring to him to desire her, as she is so far above
his</DIV>
<DIV>> station that it does not even enter his mind as a possibility; so,
too,</DIV>
<DIV>> he says, we must consider something which is forbidden to us as so
beyond</DIV>
<DIV>> the realm of possibly being ours, that we refrain from even desiring
it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> I was thinking about this, and I think that the society we live
in</DIV>
<DIV>> conspires to make this Mitzvah much harder to keep. The American
Dream</DIV>
<DIV>> is all about upwards mobility...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> Also, how does the Ibn Ezra jive with the Sifra (Kedoshim) that says
that</DIV>
<DIV>> R' EBA</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>R' Elazar ben Azarya</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> sad that a person
should not say, "I don't want to wear Shaatnez,"</DIV>
<DIV>> rather he should say, "I want to, but my father in heaven decreed
upon</DIV>
<DIV>> me that I can not!"?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I replied:</DIV>
<DIV>: What does R' Yisrael Salanter do? He makes a chiluq between kibush
hayeitzer,</DIV>
<DIV>: doing the right thing despite taavos otherwise, and tiqun hayeitzer,
which</DIV>
<DIV>: is getting the taavos in line. (And primarily a consequence of the
hergel</DIV>
<DIV>: set up by kibush).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>: The Rambam is usually explained as making a chiluq between mitzvos
sichlios</DIV>
<DIV>: and shim'iyos. IOW, the Sifrei bedavqa applies to shaatnez or
maachalos</DIV>
<DIV>: asuros, but not to something people have a native understanding of,
like</DIV>
<DIV>: arayos.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>In a later post, in reply to a question about seeing RYS inside, I
quote</DIV>
<DIV>Immanuel Etkes's translation of a snippet from Kisvei RYS, pg 165
(taken</DIV>
<DIV>from his "R Israel Salanter", pg 294):</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> There are two kinds of [character] transmutation: one,
in which man</DIV>
<DIV> turns the powers of his soul to the good, so that the
power of evil</DIV>
<DIV> is totally uprooted and not seen at all. To accomplish
this, it is</DIV>
<DIV> insufficient for man to improve his general will, to
long for the</DIV>
<DIV> good and to despise evil, but he must seek the means of
correcting</DIV>
<DIV> each individual trait of his soul. This is required in
the case of</DIV>
<DIV> the rational [ethically self-evident] commandments,
pertaining to</DIV>
<DIV> man and his fellow.... The second way involves the
"transmutation"</DIV>
<DIV> of his general will, to love and to heed that which
comes out from</DIV>
<DIV> the mouth of God in the traditional commandments [ritual
or ceremonial</DIV>
<DIV> law reflecting arbitrary, Divine will] known to us by
revelation, and</DIV>
<DIV> to seek out and reduce the power of the appetite in each
detail....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I also encountered the idea more than once when learning Or Yisrael,
but</DIV>
<DIV>(as I noted back in 2010) I couldn't find them again for the
discussion.</DIV>
<DIV>(I don't know of a searchable copy of OY.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RMYG refuted my attempt to answer his question:</DIV>
<DIV>> that your p'shat won't answer my question as the Sifra specifically
uses</DIV>
<DIV>> these three examples: 1) Shaatnez 2) Chazir 3) _Lavo Al Ha'ervah_. You
can</DIV>
<DIV>> see for yourself here, Perek 9, Halachah 10:</DIV>
<DIV>> http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14026&pgnum=222</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Which leaves us stuck, in that the usual understanding of the</DIV>
<DIV>Rambamidoesn't fit the Sifra.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Tir'u baTov!</DIV>
<DIV>-Micha</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-- </DIV>
<DIV>Micha
Berger
The waste of time is the most extravagant</DIV>
<DIV>micha@aishdas.org of all
expense.</DIV>
<DIV>http://www.aishdas.org
-Theophrastus</DIV>
<DIV>Fax: (270) 514-1507</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 6</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2013 12:26:42 -0400</DIV>
<DIV>From: cantorwolberg@cox.net</DIV>
<DIV>To: avodah@lists.aishdas.org</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: [Avodah] Synthetic Meat</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <5446D1A0-BB8E-4E79-9B23-014C99A7793B@cox.net></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="cp1255"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The following link is very apropos regarding synthetic meat:</DIV>
<DIV>http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/2293219/jewish/Is-the-Lab-Created-Burger-Kosher.htm</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>[or <http://j.mp/17a38Le>]</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-- </DIV>
<DIV>Years wrinkle the face, but to lose hope wrinkles the soul. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 7</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 16:50:54 -0500</DIV>
<DIV>From: Lisa Liel <lisa@starways.net></DIV>
<DIV>To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Cc: shalomyitz@comcast.net</DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Must we agree with the Torah?</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <520412BE.8050309@starways.net></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"; Format="flowed"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On 8/8/2013 11:32 AM, shalomyitz@comcast.net wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> OK. I deliberately made my subject header provocative... Of
course we </DIV>
<DIV>> have</DIV>
<DIV>> to agree with the Torah in the sense that we have to obey the
Torah. </DIV>
<DIV>> However,</DIV>
<DIV>> I want to know if we have to be happy about everything that HaShem
</DIV>
<DIV>> commands</DIV>
<DIV>> us (or, at least try to). I may wish that I could eat bacon;
</DIV>
<DIV>> obviously I can't do it, but</DIV>
<DIV>> is it a problem if I want to and wish the Torah made bacon
kosher?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Rabbi Elazar ben Azariah says "From where do we see that a man should
</DIV>
<DIV>not say 'Pork disgusts me; therefore I won't eat it', but rather, 'I </DIV>
<DIV>want it, but what can I do, seeing that my Father in Heaven has decreed
</DIV>
<DIV>against it'?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lisa</DIV>
<DIV>-------------- next part --------------</DIV>
<DIV>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...</DIV>
<DIV>URL:
<http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20130808/5402536d/attachment-0001.htm></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 8</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 18:20:25 -0400</DIV>
<DIV>From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name></DIV>
<DIV>To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Must we agree with the Torah?</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <520419A9.6020703@sero.name></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On 8/08/2013 5:50 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>> On 8/8/2013 11:32 AM, shalomyitz@comcast.net wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>>></DIV>
<DIV>>> OK. I deliberately made my subject header provocative... Of
course we have</DIV>
<DIV>>> to agree with the Torah in the sense that we have to obey the
Torah. However,</DIV>
<DIV>>> I want to know if we have to be happy about everything that HaShem
commands</DIV>
<DIV>>> us (or, at least try to). I may wish that I could eat bacon;
obviously I can't do it, but</DIV>
<DIV>>> is it a problem if I want to and wish the Torah made bacon
kosher?</DIV>
<DIV>></DIV>
<DIV>> Rabbi Elazar ben Azariah says "From where do we see that a man should
not say 'Pork disgusts me; therefore I won't eat it', but rather, 'I want it,
but what can I do, seeing that my Father in Heaven has decreed against
it'?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I don't think that answers the question. What REBA seems to be saying
is</DIV>
<DIV>that one shouldn't say that I wouldn't want pork, and even if it were</DIV>
<DIV>permitted I wouldn't eat it, so the prohibition is no burden on me.
But</DIV>
<DIV>I think the question here is, now that it *is* prohibited, is it proper
to</DIV>
<DIV>want it anyway, but to dutifully avoid it, or is it proper to say
that</DIV>
<DIV>although it's probably tasty, and if I didn't know that Hashem
doesn't</DIV>
<DIV>like it I'd probably eat it, but since I do know that I no longer want
it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-- </DIV>
<DIV>Zev
Sero
A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and</DIV>
<DIV>zev@sero.name
substantial reason' why he should be permitted to</DIV>
<DIV>
exercise his rights. The right's existence is all</DIV>
<DIV>
the reason he needs.</DIV>
<DIV>
- Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 9</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 21:18:33 -0500</DIV>
<DIV>From: Lisa Liel <lisa@starways.net></DIV>
<DIV>To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Must we agree with the Torah?</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <52045179.4090306@starways.net></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On 8/8/2013 5:20 PM, Zev Sero wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>> I don't think that answers the question. What REBA seems to be
saying is</DIV>
<DIV>> that one shouldn't say that I wouldn't want pork, and even if it
were</DIV>
<DIV>> permitted I wouldn't eat it, so the prohibition is no burden on
me. But</DIV>
<DIV>> I think the question here is, now that it *is* prohibited, is it</DIV>
<DIV>> proper to</DIV>
<DIV>> want it anyway, but to dutifully avoid it, or is it proper to say
that</DIV>
<DIV>> although it's probably tasty, and if I didn't know that Hashem
doesn't</DIV>
<DIV>> like it I'd probably eat it, but since I do know that I no longer
want</DIV>
<DIV>> it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think that's overthinking things a bit. I *want* to be able to eat
</DIV>
<DIV>baby back ribs. My favorite food in the world. If I were to
find out </DIV>
<DIV>tomorrow that I wasn't really Jewish, that'd be the first thing I do.
</DIV>
<DIV>If they ever come out with a kosher food that tastes the same, I'll be
</DIV>
<DIV>eating it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>So... I want to eat pork ribs, but I don't want to eat something assur.
</DIV>
<DIV> What does that mean? It means that I wish pork ribs weren't
assur. </DIV>
<DIV>Should I pretend not to want what I want just because Hashem says so?
I </DIV>
<DIV>don't think so, and I don't think Hashem wants that of us. There's a
</DIV>
<DIV>reason why it's called kabbalat ol. We aren't always going to be
</DIV>
<DIV>gung-ho cheerleaders for what Hashem commands us, but we bend our will
</DIV>
<DIV>(not our desires; our will) to Him.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>IMRHO, anyway.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lisa</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 10</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 22:01:53 -0400</DIV>
<DIV>From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name></DIV>
<DIV>To: Lisa Liel <lisa@starways.net></DIV>
<DIV>Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Must we agree with the Torah?</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <52044D91.8070100@sero.name></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="cp1255"; format="flowed"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On 8/08/2013 9:40 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>> So... I want to eat pork ribs, but I don't want to eat something</DIV>
<DIV>> assur. What does that mean? It means that I wish pork ribs
weren't</DIV>
<DIV>> assur. Should I pretend not to want what I want just because
Hashem</DIV>
<DIV>> says so? I don't think so, and I don't think Hashem wants that
of</DIV>
<DIV>> us. There's a reason why it's called kabbalat ol. We
aren't always</DIV>
<DIV>> going to be gung-ho cheerleaders for what Hashem commands us, but
we</DIV>
<DIV>> bend our will (not our desires; our will) to Him.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think that's precisely what the question is, and I'm not so sure
that</DIV>
<DIV>your answer is correct. It's one tzad, of course, but perhaps, now
that</DIV>
<DIV>you know Hashem says they're bad, it would be proper, a midas
chassidus,</DIV>
<DIV>not to *pretend* not to like them, but to develop a genuine distaste</DIV>
<DIV>for them. Perhaps now that you know He doesn't like them you ought to
try</DIV>
<DIV>to become like Him by not liking them either. It's a plausible
position,</DIV>
<DIV>and the memra that you quoted doesn't contradict it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-- </DIV>
<DIV>Zev Sero</DIV>
<DIV>zev@sero.name</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 11</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 21:25:04 -0500</DIV>
<DIV>From: Lisa Liel <lisa@starways.net></DIV>
<DIV>To: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name></DIV>
<DIV>Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Must we agree with the Torah?</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <52045300.2090209@starways.net></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="cp1255"; format="flowed"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On 8/8/2013 9:01 PM, Zev Sero wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>> I think that's precisely what the question is, and I'm not so sure
</DIV>
<DIV>> that your answer is correct. It's one tzad, of course, but
perhaps, </DIV>
<DIV>> now that you know Hashem says they're bad, it would be proper, a midas
</DIV>
<DIV>> chassidus, not to *pretend* not to like them, but to develop a genuine
</DIV>
<DIV>> distaste for them. Perhaps now that you know He doesn't like them you
</DIV>
<DIV>> ought to try to become like Him by not liking them either. It's
a </DIV>
<DIV>> plausible position, and the memra that you quoted doesn't contradict
it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I think you're assigning feelings to Hashem that aren't justifiable.</DIV>
<DIV>Is it your contention that everything Hashem says is forbidden to us
is</DIV>
<DIV>"bad"? If pork is "bad", why would a merciful God permit it to
non-Jews?</DIV>
<DIV>I think that what REBA is saying is specifically that the important</DIV>
<DIV>thing is to obey Him, and not necessarily to clamp down on our
feelings</DIV>
<DIV>about it. That, in fact, it's more praiseworthy to refrain out of</DIV>
<DIV>obedience to Hashem than it is to refrain out of one's own tastes.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>And in Pirkei Avot, it says "asei retzonach retzono". Not "asei
taamach</DIV>
<DIV>taamo" or "asei cheshkeich cheshkav".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lisa</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 12</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 22:38:58 -0500</DIV>
<DIV>From: Lisa Liel <lisa@starways.net></DIV>
<DIV>To: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name></DIV>
<DIV>Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Must we agree with the Torah?</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <52046452.7090201@starways.net></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="cp1255"; format="flowed"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On 8/8/2013 9:43 PM, Zev Sero wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>> Yes. I don't think the mitzvos are arbitrary. Hashem
*could* have </DIV>
<DIV>> given us meaningless commandments, and we would have obeyed them
</DIV>
<DIV>> willingly anyway, but He chose not to do that. This isn't
muchrach, </DIV>
<DIV>> but I think it's been the consensus view in pretty much every set of
</DIV>
<DIV>> sources you care to look at.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I didn't say "meaningless". That's a false dichotomy. There may
have </DIV>
<DIV>been a utilitarian reason that carries no judgment of "bad" with it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Lisa</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 13</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2013 22:43:46 -0400</DIV>
<DIV>From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name></DIV>
<DIV>To: Lisa Liel <lisa@starways.net></DIV>
<DIV>Cc: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Must we agree with the Torah?</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <52045762.9010602@sero.name></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="cp1255"; format="flowed"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On 8/08/2013 10:25 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>> Is it your contention that everything Hashem says is forbidden to
us</DIV>
<DIV>> is "bad"?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Yes. I don't think the mitzvos are arbitrary. Hashem *could*
have given</DIV>
<DIV>us meaningless commandments, and we would have obeyed them willingly
anyway,</DIV>
<DIV>but He chose not to do that. This isn't muchrach, but I think it's
been the</DIV>
<DIV>consensus view in pretty much every set of sources you care to look
at.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> If pork is "bad", why would a merciful God permit it to
non-Jews?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I believe the standard answer is that because of their coarser nature</DIV>
<DIV>they're not sensitive to it. Of course one could also suppose that
He</DIV>
<DIV>warned us off it and not them, because He loves us more.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This goes also into the area of whether the positive mitzvos have
inherent</DIV>
<DIV>value, and that is why He gave us them, or whether they're inherently</DIV>
<DIV>worthless and their value comes only from His having arbitrarily
picked</DIV>
<DIV>them. Which goes to the question of how one understands "ilu
nitztavinu</DIV>
<DIV>lachtov eitzim". I was taught that it means if we had been commanded
to</DIV>
<DIV>chop wood, *and it remained an essentially worthless activity* (beyond
the</DIV>
<DIV>obvious benefits of exercise and firewood), we would still willingly do
it</DIV>
<DIV>just because He told us to. This supposes that the actual mitzvos
are</DIV>
<DIV>*not* "chopping wood", and for that we are grateful.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Another implication of this chiluk is whether mitzvos have an
inherent</DIV>
<DIV>reward that is the natural consequence of keeping them, in *addition*
to</DIV>
<DIV>the reward Hashem gives us for them. If they have no inherent value,
then</DIV>
<DIV>the only sechar is that which Hashem gives us.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-- </DIV>
<DIV>Zev Sero</DIV>
<DIV>zev@sero.name</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 14</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 12:40:15 -0400</DIV>
<DIV>From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>To: Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avodah@aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Cc: saul newman <newman400@gmail.com></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] on orthopraxy</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <20130809164015.GB26369@aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Fri, Aug 09, 2013 at 08:28:29AM -0700, R Saul Newman wrote to
Areivim:</DIV>
<DIV>:
http://www.jewishjournal.com/morethodoxy/item/i_have_not_been_troubled_by_them_another_angle_on_the_question_du_jour</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>: question--if one became convinced that tora was NOT mishamayim
[r'l],</DIV>
<DIV>: would the proper response to become orthopraxic , or to drop
everything?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>If one found observance to be redemptive, then it would make sense to</DIV>
<DIV>become Orthopraxic. Some variant of C philosophy would leave gaps in</DIV>
<DIV>one's worldview that may be small enough to ignore.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>However, if one did experience the depth of shemiras hamitzvos,
why/how</DIV>
<DIV>could they be convinced Torah is not miShamayim? The halachic process</DIV>
<DIV>which gave them this version of halakhah presumes that the text is</DIV>
<DIV>sufficiently Divine to find mounds of halakhos in the very tagin of
the</DIV>
<DIV>letters. (Even assuming that's guzma.) If the text has imperfections</DIV>
<DIV>due to the human hand, then what does that say of derashos, etc...?</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are also philosophies close to O, or even within O, that accept</DIV>
<DIV>the data that led to Document Theories within O assumptions. (Not
that</DIV>
<DIV>I personally think the evidence is sound, but we are talking about</DIV>
<DIV>alternatives for RSN's hypothetical nebich-a-kofer.) I posted about
this</DIV>
<DIV>not that long ago.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>:-)BBii!</DIV>
<DIV>-Micha</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-- </DIV>
<DIV>Micha
Berger
If a person does not recognize one's own worth,</DIV>
<DIV>micha@aishdas.org how can he
appreciate the worth of another?</DIV>
<DIV>http://www.aishdas.org
- Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,</DIV>
<DIV>Fax: (270)
514-1507
author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Message: 15</DIV>
<DIV>Date: Fri, 9 Aug 2013 13:43:40 -0400</DIV>
<DIV>From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group
<avodah@lists.aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Subject: Re: [Avodah] Must we agree with the Torah?</DIV>
<DIV>Message-ID: <20130809174340.GC26369@aishdas.org></DIV>
<DIV>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>On Thu, Aug 08, 2013 at 10:38:58PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:</DIV>
<DIV>>> Yes. I don't think the mitzvos are arbitrary. Hashem
*could* have </DIV>
<DIV>>> given us meaningless commandments, and we would have obeyed
them </DIV>
<DIV>>> willingly anyway, but He chose not to do that. This isn't
muchrach, </DIV>
<DIV>>> but I think it's been the consensus view in pretty much every set
of </DIV>
<DIV>>> sources you care to look at.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>> I didn't say "meaningless". That's a false dichotomy.
There may have </DIV>
<DIV>> been a utilitarian reason that carries no judgment of "bad" with
it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>To phrase this idea differently, at least I /think/ it's the same
idea</DIV>
<DIV>in a different framework:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>It could be a hypothetical imperative rather than a categorical one.
IOW,</DIV>
<DIV>X is bad for someone trying to... rather than X is bad. In this case,</DIV>
<DIV>ribis is bad between people in a nation that has a clan/family
identity,</DIV>
<DIV>but not bad when dealing outside that community. It's morally bad,</DIV>
<DIV>but only in one context but not the other.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Similarly, there are things that are destructive for a priest caste</DIV>
<DIV>("mamlekhes kohanim") to do because our being priests means the
actions</DIV>
<DIV>will be received differently. Or because they get in the way of our</DIV>
<DIV>ministry and the world needs us as priests.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Getting back to the original topic...</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Asei Retzono retzonkha means that we should want to do something
simply</DIV>
<DIV>because Hashem "wants" it. Regardless of whether or not we know why
He</DIV>
<DIV>"wants" it, or even whether we can know all that much about the why.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That's a different discussion than belief that no mitzvah is
arbitrary.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>(Side-point: When we speak of the mitzvos being arbitrary, we mean</DIV>
<DIV>they serve no function in the universe(s) as created. However, if</DIV>
<DIV>histakeil beOraisa uvarei alma, then the question isn't whether the</DIV>
<DIV>mitzvos serve a function in the universe, but whether our souls and</DIV>
<DIV>the universe were made such that the proper effects happen from the</DIV>
<DIV>mitzvos. And the mitzvos could well have been arbitrary. But really,</DIV>
<DIV>IMHO, the mitzvah-creation unit is a single decision -- after all,</DIV>
<DIV>He is Absolutely One -- and arbitrariness would only be in relation</DIV>
<DIV>to the pair, not the mitzvos given the universe nor the universe
given</DIV>
<DIV>the mitzvos. Just Creation given His Unknowable Essence.)</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>There are different reasons why our desires could be aligned with
His,</DIV>
<DIV>and ahavas Hashem or yir'as haRomemus are only one/two of them. Two
other</DIV>
<DIV>possibilities are (1) the one Zev and Lisa are discussing: agreeing
with</DIV>
<DIV>His decision on the topic, and (2) simply aesthetic.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>R' Elazar ben Azarya (Sifra Qedoshim 10:22, Weiss ed. Bar Ilan web)</DIV>
<DIV>asks where we learn that a person should not say, "Ee ifshi lilvosh</DIV>
<DIV>sha'atnez", "... le'ekhol besar chazir", or "... lavo al ha'erva".
That</DIV>
<DIV>a person should instead say, "Ifshi. Mah a'aseh, vaAvi shebashamayim</DIV>
<DIV>gazar alai kakh?"</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Then he give his source, "Va'avil eskhem mikol ha'amim, lihyos
Li...".</DIV>
<DIV>Therefore, he concludes that a person should separate from aveirah
and</DIV>
<DIV>accept malkhus Shamayim.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The choice REBA presents is between "i ifshi" (wrong) and "gazar" or</DIV>
<DIV>"malkhus Shamayim" (right).</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>REBA is clearly ruling out the aesthetic -- "i ifshi" refers to not</DIV>
<DIV>being able to bring myself to do something. Pork is just gross, I
would</DIV>
<DIV>never touch that! But it's unclear to me that malkhus Shamayim
necessarily</DIV>
<DIV>means a blind "ana avda deQBH" or if it also includes agreeing with
what</DIV>
<DIV>we understand of His Reasons for making that gezeira.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Last, "naaseh venishma" could mean that we should expect that that</DIV>
<DIV>understanding of elements of His Reasons is a consequence of, not</DIV>
<DIV>a cause for, performing mitzvos. So it could be a position somewhere</DIV>
<DIV>between "because He said so" and "because it makes sense" -- "because</DIV>
<DIV>I trust that whatever He says does make sense."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>:-)BBii!</DIV>
<DIV>-Micha</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-- </DIV>
<DIV>Micha
Berger
Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness</DIV>
<DIV>micha@aishdas.org which is seldom
fully achieved and easily lost</DIV>
<DIV>http://www.aishdas.org again. Fulfillment lies not in a final
goal,</DIV>
<DIV>Fax: (270) 514-1507 but in an eternal
striving for perfection. -RSRH</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>------------------------------</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>_______________________________________________</DIV>
<DIV>Avodah mailing list</DIV>
<DIV>Avodah@lists.aishdas.org</DIV>
<DIV>http://www.aishdas.org/avodah</DIV>
<DIV>http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>End of Avodah Digest, Vol 31, Issue 143</DIV>
<DIV>***************************************</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>-----</DIV>
<DIV>No virus found in this message.</DIV>
<DIV>Checked by AVG - www.avg.com</DIV>
<DIV>Version: 2012.0.2242 / Virus Database: 3209/6063 - Release Date:
08/09/13</DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>