<html xmlns:v="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:vml" xmlns:o="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" xmlns:w="urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:word" xmlns:m="http://schemas.microsoft.com/office/2004/12/omml" xmlns="http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40"><head><meta http-equiv=Content-Type content="text/html; charset=utf-8"><meta name=Generator content="Microsoft Word 12 (filtered medium)"><style><!--
/* Font Definitions */
@font-face
{font-family:"Cambria Math";
panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4;}
@font-face
{font-family:Calibri;
panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4;}
/* Style Definitions */
p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal
{margin:0cm;
margin-bottom:.0001pt;
font-size:12.0pt;
font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}
a:link, span.MsoHyperlink
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:blue;
text-decoration:underline;}
a:visited, span.MsoHyperlinkFollowed
{mso-style-priority:99;
color:purple;
text-decoration:underline;}
span.EmailStyle17
{mso-style-type:personal-reply;
font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
color:#1F497D;}
.MsoChpDefault
{mso-style-type:export-only;}
@page WordSection1
{size:612.0pt 792.0pt;
margin:72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt 72.0pt;}
div.WordSection1
{page:WordSection1;}
--></style><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026" />
</xml><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><xml>
<o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">
<o:idmap v:ext="edit" data="1" />
</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>RET writes:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>On the issue of a sefardi eating in a restaurant etc. R. Abba-Shaul (Ohr Letzion chelek bet mavoh - anaf bet se-if 5) disagrees with ROY.<span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Obviously he is free to disagree, but ROY’s logic is pretty straightforward.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'> <span style='color:#1F497D'>></span>Basically he doesnt understand how<span style='color:#1F497D'> </span>you can use the Rama as part of a sfek-sfeka against the Mechaber. The mechaber</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>requires that the Jew do a substantial part of the cooking and not just light the fire.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Yes, that is how the Mechaber rules, which is why ROY needs a safek sfeka, and not just a machlokus haposkim. Basically you have a large number of rishonim lining up on both sides. The Shulchan Aruch went with the more machmir group of rishonim, the Rema went with the more makil group. So, rules ROY, Sephardim when faced with a classic case of bishul akum, ie a non Jew cooking in the non Jew’s premises, in order to matir the bishul akum, need the Jew to take part in a more substantial aspect of the cooking (eg stirring) and not just lighting the fire.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But you have yet another halachic safek. In this case about a hired non Jew cooking in the house of a Jew. Now again, there is a substantial line up of rishonim on both sides, and again, the Shulchan Aruch went with the more machmir group of rishonim.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But the group of rishonim who allow in case (a) aren’t necessarily the same as the group who allow in case (b), so if you have a situation where you have both (a) and (b) , there will be one group of rishonim who allow because they allow in all cases of (a) and yet another group who allow, because they allow in all cases of (b) and you are left with a much smaller group of rishonim that are the intersection of (a) and (b), ie that assur both in case (a) and in case (b) and so would assur where both occur.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So the fact that the Mechaber rules stringently in (a) by itself and (b) by itself doesn’t necessarily tell you how he would poskin if faced with both of these sfakos coming together. Of course, if you are saying that the Mechaber is a rishon, who makes up his own mind on each issue and is counted, then you would then say that the Mechaber falls within the intersection of those who prohibit in both cases (a) and (b). But that is not how the Shulchan Aruch is generally understood, and that is certainly not how ROY understands him to rule in the Shulchan Aruch. In the Beis Yosef he might give his own opinion, in the Shulchan Aruch he rules based on the majority of key rishonim as he sees it (given certain weightings). Ie it is a form of majority rule. Hence, if faced with both (a) and (b) the Shulchan Aruch might well feel comfortable saying that the halachic position has shifted to leniency, based on the fact that one can now add the numbers of rishonim who permit in (a) to the numbers of rishonim who permit in (b) even if he would say that if (a) occurs on its own, or (b) occurs on its own, one has to be machmir.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>As to the original question of a non-Jewish housekeeper the Schach is machmir with our modern day servants. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Not everybody appears to read the Shach that way, </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>see </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Sde Chemed in Pe’at HaSadeh (Marechet Bishulei Goyim siman 1), but even if you do, t</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>he reason I cited ROY was to enable anybody who wanted to look it up to see the fairly substantial dissent that exists on the topic.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>As Chana points out that if the elderly lady or gentleman can do something that is<span style='color:#1F497D'> </span>enough (at least for ashkezaim subject to previous discussion) that is the best solution.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Besides the wheel-chair bound patient the more prevalant problem is that many people just simply arent aware or care about bishul akum.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Well the extent that you regard it is as a problem depends on your attitude to “mutav yihu shogegin” in a concept d’rabbanan, where, when push comes to shove, one can find quite significant rishonim and achronim to rely on that matir (even if not the Shach, or the Mechaber or the people you may regard as of the heaviest weight) and where you have statements such that of the Sde Chemed that </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>“</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>and so we are accustomed to be lenient [regarding hired servants in the home of a Jew] like their words and minhag is halacha”. It is not always clear that the halacha requires one to ride in like a white knight brandishing the truth and ensuring that the ignorant unwashed out there learn it, even if, again to quote one of ROY’s favourite catch phrases, it is also true that hamachmir al atzmo tavo alav bracha.</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Separate from this issue my experience is that when many O people eat out in a nonkosher restaurant they worry about about kashrut problems and ignore bishul akum <span style='color:#1F497D'>></span>halachot.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Again the same comments but slightly more nuanced. The situation with the elderly lady or gentleman is clearly one of shas hadchak, and in addition, we know that the primary concern of such cases for which Chazal instituted the issur (that of intermarriage), doesn’t really apply. An elderly gentleman or lady, who is incapacitated, is highly unlikely to marry the, almost invariably same sex, non Jewish live in care worker. Ie the application of bishul akum to such a situation is really a lo plug in a gezera, ie Chazal didn’t differentiate, so we do not have the authority to do so. In the case of a non kosher restaurant, there is often a question about exactly how shas hadchak it is – it may be very, but it may not actually be very difficult to arrange things in a way that is mutar according to all opinions. And the reason for being in such a restaurant may also come a lot closer to the reason Chazal instituted the gezera in the first place (although it may not). In such a context I can see far greater reason to try and ensure that people know about potential problems of this nature, and hence are in a position to ask shialas, to enable things to be much more l’chatchila. In such a context I would be a lot less comfortable that mutav yihu shogegin is the right approach, instead of trying to ensure that people are better Jewishly educated. But, like so many of these things, while it may be important for people to be better Jewishly educated, that really needs to mean a full Jewish education – ie knowing not only that there is a bishul akum problem, but all the sources out there that ROY quotes that matir as well as assur in a variety of different circumstances. If people don’t have that, they may have a great l’chatchila position on bishul akum, but are badly over on the d’orisa issur of judging other Jews unfavourably due to their ignorance as to the leniencies that other people may be legitimately relying on.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#000099'>Eli Turkel</span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Chana<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>