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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body bgcolor=white lang=EN-US link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>“Of which I will forgo” was because it would take a lot of time to explain, and sometimes my longer posts bounce back.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>But to be brief, Vespasian hated the Jewish rebels and saw himself as the possible non-Jewish messiah, and this derangement was promoted by Josephus. When the Emperor died, the throne went up for grabs, so we know that just prior to 68BCE, he defeated rebels in Jordan and made his way to Alexandria, where he remained until after the fall of the Temple, and it was there that he was declared Emperor by Rome, but still remained for almost 2 years before returning to Rome. When he returned, he came by way of Jerusalem year or so after the fall of the temple, he sought the death of those who escaped, such as Rabban Gamliel, who had left with Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai, because of his “ben David” status. This remained in effect until Vespasian’s death, and Rabban Gamliel was in hiding during those intermediate years.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So the idea that Rabbi Yochanan ben Zakkai had visited Vespasian outside of the walls of Jerusalem and declared him as Emperor which was immediately reported by a messenger, doesn’t work as history. The writer of that story could have meant Titus, who was there at the time, but eliminate that he was the new Emperor, which, by the way, is also a story that Josephus claims that he used to get into the good graces of Vespasian himself! In short, my thought is that Vespasian was used as a literary device to show that, while he hated the Jews, his passion for power was greater. There could be other reasons for that as well, and I have jotted those ideas some time ago.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This brief version doesn’t do it justice, but now you see why I omitted it in the first place.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Anyhow, I have had additional thoughts as to why the literary device of “Cleopatra” was used, which I explain a bit further at: <a href="http://eweirdness.blogspot.co.il/">http://eweirdness.blogspot.co.il/</a><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>All the best,<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:navy'>Eliyahu Grossman<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><div style='border:none;border-top:solid #B5C4DF 1.0pt;padding:3.0pt 0in 0in 0in'><p class=MsoNormal><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'>From:</span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Tahoma","sans-serif";color:windowtext'> Lisa Liel [mailto:lisa@starways.net] <br><b>Sent:</b> Monday, April 22, 2013 3:09 PM<br><b>To:</b> The Avodah Torah Discussion Group<br><b>Cc:</b> Eliyahu Grossman<br><b>Subject:</b> Re: [Avodah] Queen Cleopatra<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>On 4/22/2013 4:39 AM, Eliyahu Grossman wrote: <o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal>Granted, there are other incidents in the Gemara, such as the story of Rabbi Yochanan Zakkai speaking to Vespasian and claiming he is the new Emperor and in that instant, a messenger came to declare it so. It could not have happened based on the recorded events at that time, and it is unlikely that they ever spoke. Obviously, there was something trying to be described in that case, which I will forego speaking of right now.<o:p></o:p></p></div><p class=MsoNormal style='margin-bottom:12.0pt'><br>I don't know the answer to this, but I'm going to look into it now. However, I'm curious about what you're alluding to by "which I will forego speaking of right now."<br><br>Lisa<o:p></o:p></p></div></body></html>