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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'>I wrote:</span><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><<<span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>Because it is accepted that dina d'malchusa dina (or even the conventions of<br>merchants) applies when it comes to kinyanim regarding buying and selling.<br>And under English common law (which applies in Israel in this context) the<br>picking up of the item from the supermarket shelves only constitutes an<br>"offer", which they store owner is free to accept or reject. >></span><o:p></o:p></p><div><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>And RET responded:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>If I understand Chana correctly she is arguing that Dina DeMalchuta overrides</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>halacha in making a kinyan. According to this using money to buy a moveable</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>is a kinyan because of dina demalchuta even though the gemara explictly states that</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>it is not a kinyan.</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>First without a proof I find this hard to believe. Second why the need for simtuta</span><o:p></o:p></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>why not just use dina demalchusa. <span style='color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Firstly you can have simtuta without dina d’malchusa dina – ie merchants can have conventions regarding sales without the secular law being involved or interested (certainly historically, in the case of modern states, not so much).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Secondly, simtuta can result from this kind of application of dina d’malchusa dina. That is, because the secular law of contract is so, and the merchants don’t want to fall foul of the secular law, the merchants in that place therefore conduct themselves in accordance with that particular law, hence it becomes a form of simtuta.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>You can see this from eg the Rema </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Shulchan Aruch Choshen Mishpat hilchot Geneva siman 356 si’if 7 “</span><i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>and in any event he needs to return them to the owners because of dina d’malchuta dina because thus we are accustomed to doing now, to return all stolen objects even after yeush and a change of domain due to dina dimachuta dina”.</span></i><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>That is, the custom is driven by the secular law, which then become binding under Jewish law.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>This is the way the Bet Din of America put it in their “Layman’s Guide to Dinei Torah (Beth Din Arbitration Proceedings)” at:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>http://www.bethdin.org/docs/PDF1-Layman%27s_Guide.pdf<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>pp6-7<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Do the judges follow American law?<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>They follow Jewish law, but Jewish law often takes the local law into account. For example, <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Jewish law often considers common business practice, which in the United States is often a <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>product of American law. If someone enters into a contract that is binding according to <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>American law, then they are generally bound by Jewish law as well, because the business <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>community considers such contracts binding. Also, there is a principle in Jewish law called <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>“dina d’malchusa dina,” literally, “the law of the government is the law.” The exact <a name=7></a>7<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>parameters are somewhat complex, but this means that Jewish law recognizes many secular <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>laws. Bankruptcy laws are often a good example.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Some modern articles struggle to justify buying</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> </span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>articles on the internet (perhaps using simtuta) why not just use dina demalchuta?</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The internet is somewhat tricky because it is not localised in one country (and even when you think it is, eg the seller is in Israel and the buyer is in Israel, the website might well be hosted in the UK, and the credit card company might be deeming the payments to occur in the US) and we are yet to have a fully fledged form of international law. It is therefore not totally clear what form of dina d’malchusa dina applies if there is a dispute (assuming there are differences between the different forms of law in the different countries which might be deemed to be the locus of the contract). To the extent that the conventions of merchants has not fixed on any particular law, it becomes more difficult to argue that simtuta applies.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#000099'>Eli Turkel</span><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><br>Chana<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></div></body></html>