<div dir="ltr"><div><div>I would like to issue a correction. I mentioned Benei Beteira in the Tosefta. That is, AFAIK, an erroneous reference. I was simply writing from memory, and having gone back to the sugya, I see that I blundered in citing, though my point stands, as you will see.<br>
<br></div>The Mishna mentions that R'Aqiva saw his master R' Yehoshua' upset, so he told him ein lanu mo'adim ela elu. Let's call this R' Aqiva #1. Then, R' Yehoshua' met R' Dosa ben Horkinas, and the latter told him that we must follow the leaders because we cannot otherwise function (she-im ba-in anu ladun achar beit dino shel Rabban Gamliel, tserikhin anu ladun achar kol beit din uveit din she'amad mi-ymot Moshe ve'ad 'akhshav). Let's call that R' Dosa #1. Then, R' Dosa elaborates by pointing out that the Torah generally doesn't tell us who the zekeinim were, to teach us that their decisions are binding. Let's call that R' Dosa #2.<br>
<br></div>Ad kaan the Mishna.<br><div><br>Finally, in the Gemara, we find out that R' Yehoshua' was still unconvinced and still sad, until he met R' Aqiva, presumably for a second time. I say presumably for a second time, because after meeting RA for the first time, he still saw the need to consult with R' Dosa, while after the following exchange, he famously said nichamtani, nichamtani. This is where R' Aqiva tells his master that beis din's sanctification of a month is valid even when it willfully ignored the actual phase of the moon. Let's call this R' Aqiva #2.<br>
<br>Now what do the four subsequent opinions add to each other? I feel that RA#1 implies that we should just get along with the flow, that is what society accepted, ein lekha mo'adim ella elu. This was not pleasing to RY, as ultimately, it provides hardly any reason for accepting erroneously pronounced holidays. It is merely an argument of social cohesion. A bit what R' Meir Rabi wants to read in what R' Gamliel expected of RY.<br>
<br></div><div>Then comes RD#1. The same argument as RA#1 is made, but a bit sharper: at the court level, we must accept what is out there, because we cannot afford to question the authority of the court and tehreby bring it down. Courts can exist because they are ultimately accepted and supported by the people, and the damage RY would inflict, despite being right, would be so treemendous, that we must prefer to violate YK, so as not to destroy Jewish authority in the form of RG's beit din. Now that is a very high proce to pay for what is essentially an argument from social utility, and RY is still unconvinced.<br>
<br></div><div>In comes RD#2, which makes a novel statement: court pronouncements are valid by dint of coming from the court. It's RD#1, but much sharper. RY is ready to go, but with a heavy heart.<br><br>In steps RA#2, to show that there is no problem, since mo'adot follow pronouncements of beit din, even when willfully ignoring the moon's phases.<br>
<br></div><div>Now if RY accepted that the people would follow RG's pessaq, and he didn't need to worry about his own violation of YK, since it was all a show he could game, then why didn't he agree to go as soon as he heard RA#1 or RD#1? Particularly RD#1 should suffice, so why RD#2?<br>
<br></div><div>So I deduce that the issue was different altogether. RY was expected to show he accepted RG's authority by accepting his pessaq and violating his own hypothetical YK, and this had nothing to do with social cohesion, unity, etc.<br>
<br></div><div>To give credit where crdit is due, I should add that this is inspired heavily by a shiur I once heard from R' Yoel Bin Nun.<br><br>Kol tuv,<br></div></div><div class="gmail_extra"><br><br><div class="gmail_quote">
On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 7:04 AM, Meir Rabi <span dir="ltr"><<a href="mailto:meirabi@gmail.com" target="_blank">meirabi@gmail.com</a>></span> wrote:<br><blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">
<div dir="ltr"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">To which RMR replied:</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">> The point was to diffuse a potentially extremely divisive showdown</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">> in which I think it is safe to assume, the general community was</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">> in favor of the renegade. So it was a show, and it succeeded in</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">> averting a uprising or a revolt and still permitted him to maintain</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">> the Halacha as he understood it</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px"><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">To which I replied:</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px"><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">1) But if so, why did RY not want to go?</span><br style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">
<span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">2) That was the argument of Benei Beteira. R'Yehoshua' was unhappy with </span><span style="font-family:arial,sans-serif;font-size:12.800000190734863px">that.</span><div>
<font face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif">And I now respond to Reb Aries first point - he was distressed that the nation would not be sanctifying YK and they, not the BD, would suffer - as I have been explaining for some time now, BD will NOT bring the Chatos but the people bring their own Chatos.</font></div>
<div><font face="arial, sans-serif"><br></font></div><div><font face="arial, sans-serif">I dont follow the Benei Beteira argument, please explain<br clear="all"></font><div><br>Best,<br><br>Meir G. Rabi</div>
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</blockquote></div><br><br clear="all"><br>-- <br><div dir="ltr">Arie Folger,<br>Recent blog posts on <a href="http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/" target="_blank">http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/</a><br>* Schnellkurs im jüdischen Grundwissen: I. Der Schabbat (Audio)<br>
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