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<DIV>From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org><BR>Subject: [Avodah] Goebekli
Tepe<BR><BR>See <A
href="http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/turkey.html">http://www.archaeology.org/0811/abstracts/turkey.html</A>.<BR><BR><BR><BR>--quote--
Excavations have revealed that Goebekli Tepe was constructed in two<BR>stages.
The oldest structures belong to what archaeologists call<BR>the early
Pre-Pottery Neolithic A period, which ended around<BR>9000 B.C. Strangely
enough, the later remains, which date to<BR>the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period,
or about 8000 B.C., are less<BR>elaborate. The earliest levels contain most of
the T-shaped pillars<BR>and animal sculptures.--end quote--<BR>...<BR><BR>Anyone
want to play Torah-and-Archeology on this one? We're talking about<BR>religion
and art that carbon-dates to millenia before Adam. Even if you<BR>define Adam as
the first homosap to have been blessed with a soul, not<BR>the first of the
biological species, this is still a stickler.<BR><BR><BR>-- <BR>Micha Berger
<BR>micha@aishdas.org <BR><A
href="http://www.aishdas.org">http://www.aishdas.org</A> <BR></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>>>>></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>This is not a new question, it's been around for a long time already. See
for example wikipedia re prehistoric art:</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT lang=0 color=#0000ff size=2 face=Arial FAMILY="SANSSERIF"
PTSIZE="10"><A
href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_art#Palaeolithic_era">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_art#Palaeolithic_era</A></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff>or </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><A href="http://tinyurl.com/bh4gbs6">http://tinyurl.com/bh4gbs6</A></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>--quote-- The earliest undisputed art originated with the Aurignacian
archaeological culture in the Upper Paleolithic. However, there is some evidence
that the preference for the aesthetic emerged in the Middle Paleolithic, from
100,000 to 50,000 years ago. Some archaeologists have interpreted certain Middle
Paleolithic artifacts as early examples of artistic expression.....</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>.....The oldest undisputed works of art were found in the Schwäbische Alb,
Baden-Württemberg, Germany. The earliest of these, the Venus figurine known as
the Venus of Hohle Fels, dates to some 40,000 years ago. Further depictional art
from the Upper Palaeolithic period (broadly 40,000 to 10,000 years ago) includes
cave painting (e.g., those at Chauvet, Altamira, Pech Merle, and Lascaux) and
portable art: Venus figurines like the Venus of Willendorf, and also animal
carvings, like the Swimming Reindeer, Wolverine pendant of Les Eyzies, and
several of the objects known as bâtons de commandement. --end quote--</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I mean, if you think 9000 years old is old, what do you say about cave
paintings that are 40,000 years old or maybe 100,000 years old?!</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>Possible approaches have also been suggested many times, including, if
memory serves, here on Avodah. [1] One approach is the one you suggest, that
homo sapiens were around for a long time but Adam was the first man -- i.e., he
was the first with a soul. "There were 974 generations before Adam" -- whatever
that means. [2] Another possibility is that the carbon dating is just wrong. [3]
Another possibility is that nature has so changed that processes that took only
a day to happen at the time of Creation nowadays take thousands of years. [4]
Another possibility is that the world was created as it is now, with bones [of
creatures that never actually existed] and cave paintings [never actually
painted, just created by G-d], etc, already "baked into the pie." [5] Another
possibility is that G-d created and destroyed many worlds before this one
(Medrash Rabba?), and the dinosaur bones, Neanderthal bones, prehistoric
artifacts and so on are souvenirs of those earlier worlds. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>None of those ideas are my original ideas, all have been suggested many
times in many books and articles.</DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I myself tend towards the last of those possibilities -- that our world
contains many relics of previous worlds, and those previous worlds were
necessary for this world to exist. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I consider the idea of deliberately planted fossils of creatures that never
lived [#4 above] to be a kind of deliberate deception that I just can't believe
our Creator would perpetrate. Hashem Elokeichem Emes. It's one thing to say He
created a world that admits of various interpretations, so that we can have
bechirah; quite another to say He deliberately planted false clues.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>We know from the first Rashi in Bereishis that the Creation chapters leave
out a lot and do not tell us the order in which things were created: "Sheharei
ksiv 'veruach Elokim merachefes al pnei hamayim,' it is written 'the spirit of
Hashem hovered over the face of the water,' ve'adayin lo gilah hamikra brias
hamayim masai hayasah, but the Torah had not yet disclosed when the creation of
the water was, ha lamadta, from here you learn, shekadmu hamayim la'aretz, that
the creation of water came before that of the earth [Planet
Earth?], al korchacha, against your will -- whether you want to or not --
you must admit, lo limed hamikra seder hamukdamim vehame'ucharim klum, that the
Torah does not teach the chronological order in which things were created, at
all."</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV>I know we have plowed this ground before on Avodah.</DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000ff></FONT><BR><FONT color=#0000ff><STRONG>--Toby
Katz<BR>=============</STRONG></FONT><FONT lang=0 size=2 face=Arial
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