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</o:shapelayout></xml><![endif]--></head><body lang=EN-GB link=blue vlink=purple><div class=WordSection1><div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>RTK writes:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>I would like to point out a couple of things here that may be relevant:<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>[1] First of all, the text does not say that Yael had relations with Sisra.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>I think it is also important, in order to follow the conversation between myself and RDR, to understand that we are not commenting on the actual Nach text at all, but solely on three gemoras, which for completeness I reproduce below:<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal dir=RTL style='text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed'><span class=noprint><b><span lang=HE>תלמוד בבלי מסכת הוריות דף י עמוד ב</span></b></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal dir=RTL style='text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed'><span class=noprint><span lang=HE>אמר רב נחמן בר יצחק</span></span><span dir=LTR></span><span class=noprint><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>: </span></span><span class=noprint><span lang=HE>גדולה עבירה לשמה ממצוה שלא לשמה</span></span><span dir=LTR></span><span class=noprint><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>, </span></span><span class=noprint><span lang=HE>שנאמר</span></span><span dir=LTR></span><span class=noprint><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>: </span></span><span dir=LTR><a href="javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000021500000000100240000%22)"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>+</span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>שופטים ה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'><span dir=LTR></span>+</span></a> </span><span lang=HE>תבורך מנשים יעל אשת חבר הקיני מנשים באהל תבורך</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE>מאן נינהו נשים באהל</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>? </span><span lang=HE>שרה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE>רבקה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE>רחל ולאה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>. </span><span lang=HE>איני</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>? </span><span lang=HE>והאמר רב יהודה אמר רב</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>: <a href="javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0301900002500000000500000000,0301900005300000000500000000,0302500094300000002100000000%22)"><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>לעולם</span></a><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR></span> </span><span lang=HE>יעסוק אדם בתורה ובמצות אפילו שלא לשמה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE>שמתוך שלא לשמה בא לשמה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>! </span><span lang=HE>אימא</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>: </span><span lang=HE>כמצוה שלא לשמה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>. </span><span lang=HE>אמר רבי יוחנן</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>: </span><span lang=HE>שבע בעילות בעל אותו רשע באותה שעה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE>שנאמר</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>: <a href="javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000021500000000100270000%22)"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>+</span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>שופטים ה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'><span dir=LTR></span>+</span></a><span class=noprint> </span></span><span class=noprint><span lang=HE>בין רגליה כרע נפל שכב וגו</span></span><span dir=LTR></span><span class=noprint><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>'. </span></span><span class=noprint><span lang=HE>והא קא מיתהניא מעבירה</span></span><span dir=LTR></span><span class=noprint><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>! </span></span><span class=noprint><span lang=HE>אמר רבי יוחנן משום רבי שמעון בן יוחאי</span></span><span dir=LTR></span><span class=noprint><span dir=LTR><span dir=LTR></span>: </span></span><span class=noprint><span lang=HE>אפילו טובתם של רשעים רעה היא אצל צדיקים</span></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b>Talmud Bavli Horayos 10b</b><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal>Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak said: greater is an averah lishma than a mitzvah shelo lishma as it says (Shoftim 5:24) “blessed above women is Yael wife of Chaver HaKini above women are in the tent she shall be blessed”, Who are these women who are in the tent Sarah, Rivkah, Rochel and Leah. And is this so, Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav, indeed a person should engage in Torah and mitzvos even shelo lishma, and through this lo lishma he will come to lishma. So say, [an averah lishma] is like a mitzvah which is lo lishma. Rav Yochanan said: seven beilos boel that rasha in that hour as it says (Shoftim 5:27) between her legs he bent, he fell, he lay etc. But she benefited/derived pleasure from the averah? Rav Yochanan said in the name of Rav Shimon ben Yochai even the good of the rashaim is bad to the tzadikim.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal><o:p> </o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal dir=RTL style='text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed'><span class=noprint><b><span lang=HE>תלמוד בבלי מסכת נזיר דף כג עמוד ב</span></b></span><span dir=LTR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNoSpacing dir=RTL style='text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed'><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>אמר ר"נ בר יצחק</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>גדולה עבירה לשמה ממצוה שלא לשמה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>. </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>והאמר רב יהודה אמר רב</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: <a href="javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0301900005300000000500000000%22)"><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>לעולם</span></a><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR></span> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>יעסוק אדם בתורה ובמצות אפי</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>' </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>שלא לשמן</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>שמתוך שלא לשמן בא לשמן</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>! </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>אלא אימא</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>כמצוה שלא לשמה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>דכתיב</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: <a href="javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000021500000000100240000%22)"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>+</span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>שופטים ה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'><span dir=LTR></span>+</span></a> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>תבורך</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>מנשים יעל אשת חבר הקני מנשים באהל תבורך</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>מאן נשים שבאהל</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>? </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>שרה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>רבקה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>רחל ולאה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>. </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>א</span><span lang=AR-SA style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>"</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>ר יוחנן</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>שבע בעילות בעל אותו רשע באותה שעה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>שנאמר</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: <a href="javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000021500000000100270000%22)"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>+</span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>שופטים ה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'><span dir=LTR></span>+</span></a> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>בין רגליה</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>כרע נפל שכב וגו</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>'. </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>והא קא</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>מתהניא מבעילה דיליה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>! </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>א</span><span lang=AR-SA style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>"</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>ר יוחנן</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>כל טובתן של רשעים אינה אלא רעה אצל צדיקים</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>שנאמר</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: <a href="javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000003000000000100290000%22)"><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>+</span><span lang=HE dir=RTL style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'>בראשית לא</span><span dir=LTR></span><span style='color:windowtext;text-decoration:none'><span dir=LTR></span>+</span></a> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>השמר</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>לך מדבר עם יעקב מטוב ועד רע</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>בשלמא</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> רע </span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>- </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>שפיר</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>אלא טוב אמאי לא</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>? </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>אלא לאו ש"מ</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>טובתו רעה היא</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>ש"מ</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><b>Talmud Bavli Nazir 23b</b><o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal>Rav Nachman bar Yitzchak said: greater is an averah lishma than a mitzvah shelo lishma. But did not Rav Yehuda said in the name of Rav, indeed a person should engage in Torah and mitzvos even shelo lishma, and through this lo lishma he will come to lishma. So say, [an averah lishma] is like a mitzvah which is lo lishma, like it is written (Shoftim 5:24) “blessed above women is Yael wife of Chaver HaKini above women are in the tent she shall be blessed”, Who are these women who are in the tent Sarah, Rivkah Rochel and Leah. Rav Yochanan said: seven beilos boel that rasha in that hour as it says (Shoftim 5:27) between her legs he bent, he fell, he lay etc. But she benefited/derived pleasure from his beila? Rav Yochanan said even the good of the rashaim is bad to the tzadikim as it says (Breishis 31:29) guard yourself from speaking with Ya’akov either good or bad, bad is understood, but good, why not? Rather derive from this, his good is bad, indeed derive it.<o:p></o:p></p><p class=MsoNormal dir=RTL style='text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed'><span class=noprint><b><span lang=HE>תלמוד בבלי מסכת יבמות דף קג עמוד א-ב</span></b></span><span dir=LTR><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNoSpacing dir=RTL style='text-align:right;direction:rtl;unicode-bidi:embed'><span class=noprint><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>אמר רבי יוחנן</span></span><span dir=LTR></span><span class=noprint><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: </span></span><span class=noprint><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>שבע בעילות בעל אותו</span></span><span class=noprint><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span></span><span class=noprint><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>רשע באותו היום</span></span><span dir=LTR></span><span class=noprint><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span></span><span class=noprint><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>שנאמר</span></span><span dir=LTR></span><span class=noprint><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: </span></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><a href="javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000021500000000100270000%22)">+<span lang=HE dir=RTL>שופטים ה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR></span>'+</a> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>בין רגליה כרע נפל שכב בין רגליה כרע נפל באשר כרע שם נפל שדוד</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>. </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>והא קא מתהניא מעבירה</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>! </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>אמר רבי יוחנן משום</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>ר</span><span lang=AR-SA style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>"</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>ש בן יוחי</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>כל טובתן של רשעיםרעה היא אצל צדיקים</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>שנא</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>': <a href="javascript:fireNetisLink(%22ID:0500000003000000000100240000%22)">+<span lang=HE dir=RTL>בראשית ל</span><span lang=AR-SA dir=RTL>"</span><span lang=HE dir=RTL>א</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR></span>+</a> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>השמר לך פן תדבר עם יעקב מטוב עד רע</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>בשלמא רע לחיי</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>אלא טוב אמאי לא</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>? </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>אלא ש</span><span lang=AR-SA style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>"</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>מ</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>טובתן של רשעים רעה</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>היא אצל צדיקים</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>. </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>בשלמא התם</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>- </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>דלמא מדכר</span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> ליה שמא דעבודת כוכבים</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>אלא הכא מאי רעה איכא</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>? </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>דקא שדי בה זוהמא</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>דא"ר יוחנן</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>: </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>בשעה שבא נחש על חוה הטיל בה זוהמא</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>ישראל שעמדו על הר סיני </span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>- </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>פסקה זוהמתן</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>, </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>עובדי כוכבים שלא עמדו בהר סיני </span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>- </span><span lang=HE style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>לא פסקה זוהמתן</span><span dir=LTR></span><span dir=LTR style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><span dir=LTR></span>. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNoSpacing><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNoSpacing><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'> </span><b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'>Talmud Bavli Yevamos 103a-b</span></b><span style='font-size:12.0pt;font-family:"Times New Roman","serif"'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal>Rav Yochanan said: seven beilos boel that rasha in that hour as it says (Shoftim 5:27) between her legs he bent, he fell, he lay, between her feet he bent, he fell where he bent there where he fell he lay. But she benefited/derived pleasure from the averah? Rav Yochanan said in the name of Rav Shimon ben Yochai even the good of the rashaim is bad to the tzadikim as it says (Breishis 31:29) guard yourself from speaking with Ya’akov either good or bad, bad is fine, but good, why not? Rather derive from this, the good of the rashaim are bad to the tzadikim, it is fine there because perhaps [Lavan] would mention to him the name of his idol, but here, what bad is here? Because he sent into her zuhuma, as Rav Yochanan said: in the hour in which the nachas came on Chava, he put into her zuhuma, when Israel stood at Har Sinai – their zuhuma finished, ovdei cochavim who did not stand at Har Sinai – their zuhuma did not finish<span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> Maybe that's implied in the pesukim but it is not stated. I think that there are differing opinions about whether she did or did not.</span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'> ... </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'>Second of all, there is disagreement as to whether Yael was even Jewish or not. </span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So what is in the actual text of the Nach is irrelevant, as is the other opinions (which indeed RDR brought from the Yalkut Shimoni).<o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>The key thing we are discussing is that the gemora, in three places, defines there as being a concept of “averah lishma”, and then goes on to bring Yael, as understood by Rav Yochanan (ie the opinion that indeed she did have relations with Sisera), as being the example par excellence of somebody who did an averah lishma. So whether or not Yael actually did have relations is basically irrelevant to the attempt to understand the concept the gemora brings of an averah lishma. What we have is a definition of an averah lishma, a prime example of which is somebody behaving like a Jewish Yael like character having relations with a non Jewish Sisera like character– and from there the gemora believes we can best understand what is being meant by an averah lishma. <o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p> </o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>So the question of whether or not the Navi covered something up is irrelevant to the discussion, as is any question as to whether Yael was Jewish or not. The gemora is trying to teach the concept of an averah lishma. Now when RDR argued that there could not be a forbidden act, that with intention could be turned into a permitted act, I said to him, how about the concept of an averah lishma? And he argued that this did not fit the category of a forbidden act which with intention could be turned into a permitted act (for reasons that I still fail to understand). But in order to argue the case, we have needed to argue the parameters of what is really an averah lishma, and that means we have to discuss Yael, but only in the form that the gemora, in discussing averah lishma assumes her to have acted, otherwise we are not fleshing out the concept of an averah lishma. You can quite happily believe Yael never touched Sisera, and indeed was not Jewish, but that belief will not help you understand what the gemora means by the concept of an averah lishma.<o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'> <o:p></o:p></span></p></div><div><p class=MsoNormal><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>></span></strong><strong><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'>--Toby Katz</span></strong><b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:blue'><br><strong><span style='font-family:"Arial","sans-serif"'>=============</span></strong></span></b><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:black'><br><br></span><span style='font-size:10.0pt;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Regards<br><br><o:p></o:p></span></p><p class=MsoNormal><span style='font-size:11.0pt;font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";color:#1F497D'>Chana<o:p></o:p></span></p></div></div></div></body></html>