<html><head></head><body style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div><div>On Jul 12, 2012, at 11:22 AM, David Cohen wrote:</div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div>Yishuvo shel olam aside, I also see inherent value in learning math: it is truth. We learn Torah because it is revealed truth, and some of us study science because it is another reflection of the ways of Hashem, who is truth. The laws of math are objectively true, independent of their mapping onto the physical world. </div></div></blockquote><div><br></div><div>Certainly this would then apply to the sciences (although perhaps what you write below wouldn't.) I'm curious if you would say this about humanities. They truths they expose are of an altogether different type. And art, which doesn't generate truth, does help "fill out" all the potentialities of HaShem's creation. And what about art criticism, which explicates all that are "fills out." How far would you take this? (I'm sitting on the fence for now.)</div><div><br></div><blockquote type="cite"><div dir="ltr"><div> I remember that I once shocked a friend when I said that Hashem, notwithstanding His omnipotence and ability to change any of the laws of physics, cannot change the value of Pi. I don't mean changing the semantics -- anybody could say that a circle means something else, or that 3.14159 means something else -- but the value of Pi is objectively true, independent of the physical existence of the universe.</div>
</div></blockquote><br></div><div>Rambam basically says this in the MN (in fact, his specific example is from geometry). His point is that certain things are intrinsically impossible, but nothing causes them to be impossible, so this is not actually a limit on God. Now, I'm not aware of a specific source that contradicts this, but I think there are others who would argue on that. It seems like the idea may well be rooted in some of the Aristotelean notions regarding what is necessary (not that that says anything either way about whether it is correct). Here too, I must plead being on the fence; it seems to me that the this is a question that ultimately asks how the process of creating yesh m'ayin works, which is something intrinsically beyond our knowledge.</div><br><div apple-content-edited="true">
<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>--</div><div>Daniel M. Israel</div><div>President, Kol BeRamah Torah Learning Center of Santa Fe</div><div><a href="mailto:daniel@kolberamah.org">daniel@kolberamah.org</a></div><div><br></div></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></div></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline"></span><br class="Apple-interchange-newline">
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<span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><span class="Apple-style-span" style="border-collapse: separate; color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: Helvetica; font-style: normal; font-variant: normal; font-weight: normal; letter-spacing: normal; line-height: normal; orphans: 2; text-align: -webkit-auto; text-indent: 0px; text-transform: none; white-space: normal; widows: 2; word-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-horizontal-spacing: 0px; -webkit-border-vertical-spacing: 0px; -webkit-text-decorations-in-effect: none; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px; font-size: medium; "><div style="word-wrap: break-word; -webkit-nbsp-mode: space; -webkit-line-break: after-white-space; "><div>--</div><div>Daniel M. Israel</div><div><a href="mailto:dmi1@cornell.edu">dmi1@cornell.edu</a></div></div></span></span>
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