<HTML><HEAD></HEAD>
<BODY dir=ltr>
<DIV dir=ltr>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Calibri'; COLOR: #000000; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">RMB wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">> We're miscommunicating because you are
saying that there is no separate<BR>> issur of torture beyond hitting,
something to which I agree. I don't think<BR>> hitting in order to get
something from someone and torture are different<BR>>
things.<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">RZS wrote:<BR>I'm not sure there isn't a
separate issur. I just can't think of one.<BR>Maybe it does exist, and someone
can find a source for it. But the<BR>original question assumed that there was
such an issur and asked whether<BR>it could ever be overcome, and RLL's answer
was that first one must<BR>establish that the issur exists, and then we can talk
about its limits.</FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>CM asks:</DIV>
<DIV>Well what about cases where there is no “hitting,” but there is either
physical or psychological pain, such as say, 1) sleep deprivation, 2)
deprivation of food and water by a near starvation diet, 3) being forced to
stand all day, 4) getting a little more physical, to be subjected to
the much discussed water boarding, and I am sure we could dream up many others.
What would these be considered if a father or rebbe tried them? I think most
would think them highly abusive and asur but there is no “hitting”
involved.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Kol Tuv</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Chaim Manaster</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV></DIV></DIV></BODY></HTML>