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<DIV>RZS wrote:</DIV>
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<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Again, tzaar baalei chayim means hurting an
animal for no purpose.<BR>The moment you have a reason it's not assur. Whereas
hurting a person<BR>is assur, with certain exceptions. It only makes sense to
discuss<BR>torture in a case where it's already been established that force
not<BR>amounting to torture is allowed, and any such case will by
definition<BR>have a purpose, so the kal vachomer from tzaar baalei chayim will
not<BR>work.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT><BR>CM asks for clarification:</DIV>
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<DIV>I think you need to define “for no purpose,” wrt <FONT
face="Times New Roman">tzaar baalei chayim and then clearly define the heter you
refer to when you say “</FONT><FONT face="Times New Roman">force not amounting
to torture is allowed, and any such case will by definition have a purpose” and
verify that this would be the same “purpose” as the “<FONT face=Calibri>for no
purpose,” above.</FONT></FONT></DIV>
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<DIV>For example, 1) I kill an animal for meat to satisfy my hunger, 2) I kill
an animal for meat to satisfy my (not hunger) enjoyment of food, 3) I kill an
animal for meat for my hunger, painfully, 4) I kill an animal for meat to
satisfy my (not hunger) enjoyment of food, painfully, 5) I kill an animal to
make an ornament of its horns on my wall, 6) I kill an animal to make an
ornament of its horns on my wall, painfully and because I enjoy watching the
pain, (you could throw this last phrase into any of the above as well),
7) I kill an animal painfully and because I enjoy watching the pain
– it is psychologically soothing to my psyche, 8) I kill an animal painfully
because I want to and I am a control freak, so this satisfies me. Which are
purposeful and which are purposeless? If I do it, it is always because I want to
satisfy some desire I have – so is that a “purpose.”</DIV>
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<DIV>So in these various nuanced types of “purpose” cases, will the “purpose” in
<FONT face="Times New Roman">tzaar baalei chayim always be satisfied by the
implied “purpose” you derived “by definition” from the heter in those
cases of haka’a ?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Kol Tuv</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Chaim Manaster</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
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