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<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">On 14/05/2012 4:00 PM, Micha Berger
wrote:<BR>> On Mon, May 14, 2012 at 02:01:18PM -0500, Lisa Liel
wrote:<BR>>> On 5/13/2012 3:26 PM, Harvey Benton
wrote:<BR><BR>>>> is torture ever allowed in halacha???<BR><BR>>>
Is it ever not allowed in halakha?<BR><BR>> If tza'ar baalei chaim isn't
allowed, lo kol shekein humans.<BR>> So, there has to be a criterion for
justification.<BR></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">RZS wrote:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"><BR>If it's for no reason then why talk about
torture? Hitting another<BR>person is explicitly forbidden by the Torah: "pen
yosif". The question<BR>only makes sense in a case where we've already
determined that hitting<BR>is permitted, and now RHB is asking whether there are
any cases where<BR>not only hitting but also torture is permitted. And RLL's
response is<BR>correct: first find a case where it's *not* permitted, and only
then<BR>can you ask whether there also exist cases where it is.</FONT><BR><BR>CM
responds:</DIV>
<DIV>I think RMB’s logic makes more sense, and the argument by RZS above is
missing the step that RMB provided.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>That is to say: Accepting RZS’s point that even plain vanilla hitting is
asur even if it does not amount to torture, so we must be considering cases
where hitting is permitted. Now comes RHB with his question about torture. Then
RZS chooses R’nLL logic rather than argue that even if hitting is permitted
perhaps the level of issur from the kal vechomer from <FONT
face="Times New Roman">tza'ar baalei chaim would indicate that the default at
this point is issur and you would then have to bring proof of heter and not as
R’nLL assumes a default of heter.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Kol Tuv</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Chaim Manaster</FONT></DIV>
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