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On 5/9/2012 10:45 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
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<blockquote cite="mid:20120509194519.GA42268@aishdas.org"
type="cite">
<pre wrap="">Both the SA and the Rama say that iqar hadin is like the Rambam and we may use kefiyah even when the gemara doesn't explicitly require a
divorce. However, the SA has a "some say" not to, and the Rama lauds the minhag of some areas not to allow kofin oso ad sheyomar "rotzeh
ani", and avoid the dispute. Where the gemara <b class="moz-txt-star"><span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span>does<span class="moz-txt-tag">*</span></b> require a divorce, which I am not insisting is our case, there is not even a "yeish omerim"
against the Rambam. So yes, we do hold like the Rambam -- we just prefer lemaaseh not to rely on him lekhat-chilah for beyond iqar hadin
reasons.
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The above paragraph is a serious misreading of the Shulchan Aruch
and Rema.<br>
<br>
It says <b>nowhere</b> in the Shulchan Aruch or Rema that they hold
like the Rambam in the case of where the wife claims Ma'us Alei (he
disgusts me) - the case under discussion Furthermore contrary to
your reading - the Shulchan Aruch And Rema do not say that kefiya
can be used when the gemora doesn't explicity requre a divorce.
What they do say is that: "Where the gemora says that a get must be
given it means beating with sticks. While some say that that beating
can only be used where the gemora said to force the husband to give
a get but where it only says a divorce should be given - no beating
is allowed." It does not address the issue of "where the gemora
doesn't explictly require a divorce" It is talking about cases where
the gemora explicity says to either force a get or give a get. The
case of ma'us alei is neither because no get is required at all as
is clearly spelled out in the teshuva of Rav Eliashiv, Rav
Sternbuch, Minchas Yitzchok etc that I have translated.<br>
<br>
The issue of using force in a case of ma'us alei is addressed EH
77:2 - there the Shulchan Aruch says - "<b>If</b> the husband wants
to divorce his wife." As the Otzer haposkim points out the Shulchan
Aruch uses the Rambam's language except it makes one major change -
Ramam says in ma'us alei he is forced to give a get but Shulchan
Aruch says "if the husband wants to divorce" Thus clearly the
Shulchan Aurch does not hold like the Rambam! The Otzer haPoskim has
a major kuntres on the use of force in ma'us alei for simon 77. It
does not cite a single source that agrees with your assertion that
the Shulchan Aruch and Rema agree with the Rambam!<br>
<br>
<b><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Arial">Shulchan Aruch (</span></b><b><span
style="mso-bidi-font-family:Arial">E. H. 154:21): </span></b><span
dir="LTR">All those cases which the gemora says that
the wife should be given a divorce – that means that the husband
can be forced
by being beaten with sticks. However some say that all those cases
in which the
gemora does not explcitly say the husband is forced to give a get<span
style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>but only says the wife should
be divorced –
the husband is not to be forced with sticks, but is only told
,”The sages
require you to divorce your wife” and if he does not divorce his
wife then it
is permitted to call him an avaryan. Rema: Since this is a dispute
of the sages
[whether all cases where the sages say to divorce one’s wife the
husband may be
forcing by a beating] it is appropirate to be machmir and not beat
him in order
to avoid making a get me’usa (invalid get because of coercion).
But if the
marriage constitutes a sin then everyone agrees that the husband
can be forced
to divorce with a beating. As a general rule all cases where
beating is not
permitted we also do not use nidoi<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">
</span>Nevertheless in these cases [where beating and nidoi are
not permitted]<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> </span>it is
possible to decree on all Jews not to
do any favor for him or do business with him or to circumcize his
sons or to
bury him – until he divorces his wife. Any chumra that beis din
wants to do
they can do – as long as it doesn’t consitute nidoi. However one
who doesn’t
fulfill his sexual obligations to his wife it is possible to place
him in nidoi
or cherem until he fulfils his obligation or divorces his wife.
This is not
force except to motivate him to fufill his obligation... <o:p></o:p></span>
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