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<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">CM:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">> Take a hypothetical future Peng Peng II
with more extensive genetic manipulation that is born looking like (being?) a
Roundworm on four legs, but with split hooves and that chews its cud and has the
two simonim for shechita. Would you both still stick to your logic so
assuredly?<BR>RZS:<BR>Why not? It has simanei tahara, after all.<BR>CM
responds:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">You are missing the point. The point was that
at some point it may not be a chaya or beheima and thus these simanim would no
longer apply.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">--------------------</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">CM:<BR>> Or consider the genetic
manipulation of fowl. Here the Torah basically gives us the 22 non-kosher birds,
the others being kosheer. Here specie is determinative. So there are no Simanei
kashrus utreifus (although some are given in shas and poskim). Then the
operative question would be how much genetic manipulation could halacha tolerate
before considering the result a new species?<BR>RZS:<BR>To the best of my
knowledge, the definition of speciation in hilchos<BR>kil'ayim is whether they
can produce fertile offspring. Thus if this<BR>creature can breed only with
members of its own clan then it's a new<BR>kosher species; if it can breed with
sheep but not with roundworms,<BR>then it's a sheep.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"><BR>CM replies:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">In your 1st case – “</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman">this creature can breed only with members of its own clan
then it's a new kosher species.” Why assume it is a new KOSHER specie, perhaps
it is a new treif specie, because perhaps it is no longer even a chaya or
beheima?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">In your 2nd case – “</FONT><FONT
face="Times New Roman">it can breed with sheep but not with roundworms, then
it's a sheep” I find more acceptable but even here there are difficulties. For
example some of these genetic hybrids are sterile and can not breed at all. In
these cases your interbreeding test would fail to give any reults proving it a
sheep, and would be subject to the safek that perhaps it is no longer even a
beheima or chaya and therefore even though possessing simanei tahara (for a
beheima or chaya) might still be treif.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT
face=Calibri>------------------------------------------------------------------------------</FONT> <BR>CM:<BR>>
Which brings us back to Peng Peng. when the Torah gives us the simanei tahara of
split hooves and chewing the cud it explicitly only applies to the class of
chaya and beheima ? not other living creatures. So we must revisit the question
how much genetic manipulation would halacha tolerate before considering Peng
Peng something other than a chaya or beheima. My intuition (sorry - nothing
better than that) tells me we have not yet crossed that line with Peng Peng, but
clearly that line exists and placing it will become a future subject for many
shu?ts as this technology continues to develop.<BR>RZS:<BR>Then what is it? It's
certainly not a fish, a bird, or a creepy-<BR>crawly. I'd think that by
definition if it has four legs that are<BR>clearly visible when it walks then
it's either a beheima or a chaya;<BR>but if not, then it's something that the
Torah never told us *not*<BR>to eat.</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">CM replies:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Perhaps a beryah chadasha? Genetically that is
certainly what it is. I think your argument assumes as fundamental an iron clad
rule that if it has four legs – no matter what else is different – it is a chaya
or beheima. I am not sure that the rule is as absolute as you imply and without
exception. I am sure that your imagination can conjure up all sort of novel and
weird creatures on four legs with simanei tahara say for example a bovine
version of a centaur or mercow (with gillls and legs [and maybe even fins and
scales too just for fun]) etc etc. and I imagine a rov would be hard put to
apply the rule you propose in a naïve and direct fashion or to a mutated giant
ant with only four legs (missing one segment but with split hooves
etc).</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">PS: There is this article: <IMG
style="BORDER-BOTTOM-STYLE: none; BORDER-LEFT-STYLE: none; BORDER-TOP-STYLE: none; BORDER-RIGHT-STYLE: none"
class="wlEmoticon wlEmoticon-smile" alt=Smile
src="cid:7C2C410AA6974C508737D7A79B50EE30@hankPC"></FONT></DIV>
<H1
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; COLOR: ; WORD-SPACING: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
class=heading align=left><FONT face=Arial><FONT
style="FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt">Half-man, half-goat discovered in
Zimbabwe?</FONT></FONT></H1>
<DIV
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; WORD-SPACING: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
class=heading align=left><A
style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0pt; WORD-SPACING: normal"
href="http://www.perthnow.com.au/half-man-half-goat-discovered-in-zimbabwe/story-e6frg4nl-1225780382385"><FONT
face="Times New Roman">http://www.perthnow.com.au/half-man-half-goat-discovered-in-zimbabwe/story-e6frg4nl-1225780382385</FONT></A><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV
style="PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; LINE-HEIGHT: 26px; WIDOWS: 2; TEXT-TRANSFORM: none; BACKGROUND-COLOR: rgb(255,255,255); TEXT-INDENT: 0px; MARGIN: 0px 0px 5px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; LETTER-SPACING: normal; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; FONT-FAMILY: ; WHITE-SPACE: normal; ORPHANS: 2; WORD-SPACING: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px; -webkit-text-size-adjust: auto; -webkit-text-stroke-width: 0px"
class=heading align=left><A
style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; TEXT-INDENT: 0pt; WORD-SPACING: normal"
href="http://weeklyworldnews.com/mutants/12285/half-man-half-goat-creature/"><FONT
face="Times New Roman">http://weeklyworldnews.com/mutants/12285/half-man-half-goat-creature/</FONT></A><FONT
face="Times New Roman"> </FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Kol Tuv</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman">Chaim Manaster</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face="Times New Roman"></FONT> </DIV>
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